Zonesense readings
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@Brad_Olwin It doesn’t appear to make sense to suggest that there is a lost connection from the HR chest strap. The strap is paired and the connection signaled before the start of the run. I’m checking the watch for pace and sometimes see that the heart rate has suddenly dropped then works its way back up - BUT the sync upload to the phone app shows no indication of this happening and indicates appropriate data with no dropouts.
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@duffman19 When you have this experience with “dropouts” does it show up in your synced data on your phone - because what happens with my system is that the “dropouts” are only shown on the watch and not in the final data. The data is actually spot on and good - so I’m not complaining - but the record on the watch doesn’t match the record on the phone. That’s weird!
My main concern is that this is concurrent with a complete absence of ZoneSense data - even though it’s selected for use.
Only once last week I got data for ZoneSense thresholds - just on one run. In general I don’t see any problem from the H10+ logged data on the phone.
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@Belial At the end of my workout I get a correct and complete data sync upload on my phone showing completely appropriate data - it’s only on the watch in real time I see dropouts and then bad data being stored (Logbook) - that doesn’t correspond with the data on the phone. Today I actually never saw the watch rea time display drop below 176 bpm and never noticed any dropout - but the watch logbook shows this completely incompatible graph!
When I’m in VO2max zone for most of a workout I never get any ZoneSense data at all - however if I select that page in real time on the watch I see ZonSense working - just nothing stored or synced to the phone.
It’s a bit of a mess but I can work fine with it. I just feel that I should mention all of this if it can help others.
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@Ian-Beveridge in my case, after connection froze, the file on the phone was corrupted:
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@Belial Thank for posting! The problem you had looks very straightforward - a dropout and disconnection of your HR. My problem is that I’m getting two completely different HR graphs - and no ZoneSense graph at all.
Today - running the same 5K (400m loops) I did have some HR chest strap dropouts - but they show up clearly on the phone app and there was no disconnection. This happened because I didn’t have access to putting salt in my water for wetting the H10+ electrodes. I expect small dropouts if I don’t get the electrolyte correct and well concentrated - but this isn’t the problem I’m addressing here.
Today I checked the ZoneSense in real time about 15 minutes into the workout and it was working - but it was static right at the bottom of the green aerobic zone - while my heart rate was around 175 bpm which VO2max level. Needless to say there was no ZoneSense data available after I completed the workout.
Once again there are two completely different HR graphs - the one on the watch (logbook) being wildly wrong. It looks like the ZoneSense is somehow muddled up with the Heart Rate record - going by the Watch HR graph and what I saw when looking at ZS on the watch during the workout.
Here are the two very different graphs for the same workout…
and
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Consider ZoneSense as a look in the past (I’d say about 1-2min). It can’t be used to control such efforts like short repetitions or intervals (short I’d say less than 10mins; and it’s stated like that by Suunto).
I use ZoneSense in “real-time” to stay below LT1 (e.g. easy runs). For other workouts I run by power (Stryd) and use ZoneSense to verify the power-ranges.
E.g. in 3x10min sub-threshold run I expect ZoneSense to get “yellow” after 5mins. earliest. If it turns “red” (above LT2) at the end I use this as a sign that I went a bit too hard and assign the effort the next time.I still consider ZoneSense as a valueable tool but for real-time measurement (beside easy runs), it really is too laggy because it needs some amount of R-R recordings.
Anyway I was an “easy runs too fast” guy for the last 25 years, ZoneSense really helped me to get that right and I feel a lot better now, esp. because we all don’t get younger. -
I give up.
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@Ian-Beveridge Have you checked the quality of the HR measurements of your belt? Runalyze has a nice graph for it. The bad quality could be the reason for the missing thresholds and complete Zone Sense data in the app as well as for the different HR graphs between watch and app.
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@soisan Look at the graphs - the HR data from the belt is rock solid for the first two examples - that’s downloaded to the app from the watch. Why is the graph stored on the watch completely different from the graph correctly displayed on the phone app? It’s amazing that nobody can see this. The detailed phone app graph shows a completely consistent (and stable) HR recording.
Yesterday I went for a walk with just using the optical HR and the two graphs (watch/app) were identical - ZoneSense was activated but there was no data available after syncing. Basically - the software/firmware is a mess.
It was the same with the counter being blocked in real time ZoneSense - first admission that there was a problem was the recent firmware update with this error being listed as having been corrected.
I’m not going to be using ZoneSense at all now. I’ll see if by getting rid of ZoneSense also removes the problems with the stored graphs being different on watch and app.
So far I’ve identified 3 different problems - one has been fixed with the latest firmware update.
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@Ian-Beveridge just to calm you down that you are not seeing ghosts…I can also see that the watch doesn’t show any HR readings and that there seems to be a software issue with your watch, because the data are there!
The wrongly depicted HR values and ZS are probably related because ZS might only be calculated by the watch and the calculated values are then only transferred to the app. Because the software of your watch seems to be faulty, the HR is not correctly stored and used by your watch. The walk with the OHR can not give you any ZS as it only works with non-optical belts measuring RR data. Maybe there is also some software error with your watch handling the data from your belt.You need to somehow get the software fixed or accept it and forget about ZS which anyway is pretty debatable. But that’s another topic…
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@brave_dave
I’m calmed down now! 100% agreed with you. I’ve only used the “Race S” since March and the Suunto ecosystem is super complex but incredibly intuitive and practical. However it takes experience to reveal the whole system that we can control and it’s hard to know whether there’s a bug or if you’ve just set up something incorrectly.Just one question: Is there a protocol for giving feedback when a bug does rear its ugly head? …or is the forum monitored for that purpose anyway?
I was only using ZS because I knew my 5 Zone HR max setup was based on an inaccurate HR max figure. I’m coming back to running after a break of several years for injuries and I know from experience that my max heart rate is much higher running than cycling (I live in the French Alps and do both). The highest HR I could make to start with (March) was 184bpm and I couldn’t get higher - but when I stopped running about 5 years ago (aged 62) it had been 202bpm - so I spotted that ZoneSense seemed a way around this issue. Recently my HR max however has recovered up to 192 bpm without even sprinting - (because I simply am not fit enough yet to sprint fast). However I’m getting close enough to my innate capacity that I can start to use a HR max based system (which now gives me more sensible feedback) and can forget about the ZoneSense.
Back in 1993 I bought “The Heart rate Monitor” book by Sally Edwards and learned about how to use age based formulas to estimate max HR and calculate my max at 185 bpm. Now she doesn’t work for Polar but has a private business and on her website she declares that if you have trained all your life there is no lowering of max HR!!! I found that in my mid 50s I was topping out at 173 bpm (road bike) and was losing about 1bpm per year but then I decided to go ketogenic. For two years in ketosis my max HR every few weeks would creep up 1 bpm - until reaching 202 - when after a 40 min warm up I would see when sprinting uphill running. To me Zones based on HR max will always be the most critical and relevant data.Another issue is the minimum HR - which Suunto average over 25 minutes I believe. That’s a bummer because seeing your lowest dip during the night is often more meaningful - not a 25 minute average. I wouldn’t average my HR max over 25 minutes so why should I do that for my minimum?
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@Ian-Beveridge said in Zonesense readings:
Why is the graph stored on the watch completely different from the graph correctly displayed on the phone app?
That’s because the quality of the data from your belt is bad! Watch and app filter in this case the data differently. If you try to check it, with Runalyze for example, you’ll find a great percentage of anomalies in the corresponding graph.
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@soisan said in Zonesense readings:
Runalyze
Thanks for directing me to Runalyze! I uploaded the recorded data for my run today and it actually verifies that the belt is working fine - which I’d expect because it’s only a couple of months old and it’s been behaving extremely well.From today’s workout -
1 photo of my Suunto App graph
2 screen grab of the Runalyze graph
3 photo of the watch graphDespite deselecting ZoneSense the watch graph is completely wrong! It appears to be a clear and obvious bug.
The watch give the correct average HR at 180 bpm and the correct min 78 and max 192 - but only the very start of the data shown on the graph is correct - the rest is wildly wrong. -
@Ian-Beveridge said in Zonesense readings:
Despite deselecting ZoneSense
Just FYI, ZoneSense will always be calculated by the app when using a compatible external HR strap. The SuuntoPlus on-watch app is only used to view the calculations in real time and not a requirement for ZS post analysis. (Maybe you already knew that, but just wanted to make that clear.)
I would agree with @brave_dave that something screwy is going on with your watch software. You clearly have all of the HR and HRV data synced to the app as you’ve shown. Perhaps something is going on with the H10’s internal memory? If I recall, the H10 can store HR data for a session and then sync it back after completion. I don’t know how it works with the H10, but with the Suunto Smart Sensor, you will sometimes see a “Syncing HR data” notification after ending an activity. Does this happen with your H10? Maybe the culprit is in there somewhere?
Edit: Don’t know if you’ve seen it, but others are also having sync issues with the H10 - https://forum.suunto.com/topic/13448/discrepancy-in-hr-statistics-between-watch-and-app
Vertical Ti / S9PP Ti / S9P Ti
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@Ian-Beveridge
You need to look at the r-r data in Runalyze, not the HR graph. It will show you plots (and tabulated statistics) of the data. Like this in the “successive differences” plot:
The r-r values should cluster together and the anomalies % in the table should be very low. The most likely cause of your bad data is a belt problem and this will show with widely scattered r-r data and a high % anomalies. As @soisan has explained apps (Suunto, Strava, Runalyze etc etc) will apply filters to the r-r data to try to remove anomalies and derive realistic HR values when processing the fit file.I suggest only considering a problem with your watch after you’ve verified the quality of data from your belt (by reviewing the r-r data).
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@duffman19 I scrolled down on the link you gave me - and saw that they were getting the same problem even if they used a Suunto HR belt. Looks like a Suunto Run is the watch - probably the same software as my Race S but I’ve not had any poorly synced data like they are getting. Yes - sometimes I see “Synching HR data” on my watch when using my Polar H10+ belt. My H10+ belt data is spot on and logged correctly in the phone app every time.
1 the ZoneSense real time counter was freezing (apparently fixed with last watch firmware update - but I’ve only done short fast workouts since so haven’t tested it properly yet)
2 If I push hard on my workouts - near VO2max - I never get an upload of ZS data on my phone app.
3 the watch logbook HR graph is just totally wrong - but seems not to be interfered with by ZS !I’ve deselected ZoneSense from both running and walking.
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@MKPotts I’m not getting “bad data” - it plots correctly in the phone app. There’s a problem with the watch logbook graph display.
As for checking the HRV in Runalyze I’m assuming it would need to be taking it from ZS data - but the watch practically never uploads the ZS data - that’s one of the other problems. I uploaded a fit file from the phone app to look at on Runalyze but it had no HRV data. If the HRV data is just extracted from the raw H10+ belt input then I’m just not seeing how to access it.
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@Ian-Beveridge Post the R-R data graph from Runalyze as @MKPotts did. I would bet yours is very bad. If poor, this is why your ZS data is not parsed to the app. From the HR traces on your watch something looks off. Just saw your last post, if no R-R data is in Runalyze then there is clearly something wrong with the belt and not the watch. Are you using the Suunto Run. Here is an image from my last exercise using the Suunto Smartsensor belt with Suunto Run. I was doing an interval workout 4x3 min hard so I expected my AT to be off, LT was good.
