Zonesense readings
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@Ian-Beveridge
So - today there was a firmware update - correcting the ZoneSense counter bug! (Race S)It just gets weirder!
I maintained a heart rate of above 180 bpm for 22 minutes. (Using a Polar H10+ chest strap). Directly from my watch log of the workout there were three clear and sustained significant dropouts (to a slow zone 1 HR) during this period - however after syncing with the Phone App there were no dropouts at all recorded. I saw the watch doing this during the run and after when looking at the logged summary (it’s still present in the watch logbook).
Contrary to my previous experience although ZoneSense is active and I didn’t use that page on the watch - there was absolutely no ZS data recorded.
I’m wondering if there is a technical issue due to my set Max HR for HR Zone data being set at 184 and due to getting faster I went above this limit up to 192 bpm. It’s the first time in about 7 years (due to knee injuries) that I’ve been able to run fast enough to register above 184 bpm. (Bear in mind I’m 67 yo and before my injuries had a max of 202 and resting 36 bpm).
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@Brad_Olwin I have also experienced this. ZS is great at showing me how fresh I really am. It can been surprising.
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@Ian-Beveridge I doubt anyone junked it…we don’t do that. I have an iPhone and the only issues I have had is the watch dropping connection to the belt but that is on field test firmware. I do not understand why your data is not recalculated in the app.
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@Brad_Olwin Here’s a photo of the workout logged on my watch - with dropouts. And also the graph of the phone app for the same workout.
ZoneSense was activated but nothing made it to the phone app.
Those two problems exist in the system.
I’ve updated my set max HR to see if it affects the data handling for the next run tomorrow. -
@Ian-Beveridge
Repeated a similar run today - VO2max.
1 - Same problem with no ZoneSense data on the phone app after the sync (verified that it’s selected in the SuuntoPlus menu on the watch)
2- Heart rate data from H10+ chest strap is correct on the phone app but wildly wrong when checked on the watch logbook.
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@Ian-Beveridge Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but after a long and flawless “cooperation” between my Vertical and H10, things suddenly went south.
First, ZoneSense became quirky and unreliable. Then the H10 connection to the Vertical started freezing after 20–30 minutes of workouts.
I switched to a warranty-replaced HRM Pro Plus and everything went back to normal. Maybe your H10 is starting to fail too? Mine is over 6 years old, and I think its time has finally come
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@Ian-Beveridge The latest watch image does not look ok, it appears that the HR is flatlining and maybe losing connection.
Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing/Race2Ti
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@Ian-Beveridge I agree with @Brad_Olwin that it looks like there is a connection issue with the external HR. I’ve also been experiencing this with both a Suunto Smart Sensor and Polar Verity Sense. During one activity, I completely lost connection after about 45 minutes despite the sensor having plenty of battery remaining (posted about it under the Hotfix topic). During others, I’ve experienced random drops and reconnections, much like what it looks happened to you in the images above.
A soft reset (after the latest update) seems to have resolved it so far, but I’m not too confident in the sensor connections at the moment.
Vertical Ti / S9PP Ti / S9P Ti
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@Brad_Olwin It doesn’t appear to make sense to suggest that there is a lost connection from the HR chest strap. The strap is paired and the connection signaled before the start of the run. I’m checking the watch for pace and sometimes see that the heart rate has suddenly dropped then works its way back up - BUT the sync upload to the phone app shows no indication of this happening and indicates appropriate data with no dropouts.
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@duffman19 When you have this experience with “dropouts” does it show up in your synced data on your phone - because what happens with my system is that the “dropouts” are only shown on the watch and not in the final data. The data is actually spot on and good - so I’m not complaining - but the record on the watch doesn’t match the record on the phone. That’s weird!
My main concern is that this is concurrent with a complete absence of ZoneSense data - even though it’s selected for use.
Only once last week I got data for ZoneSense thresholds - just on one run. In general I don’t see any problem from the H10+ logged data on the phone.
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@Belial At the end of my workout I get a correct and complete data sync upload on my phone showing completely appropriate data - it’s only on the watch in real time I see dropouts and then bad data being stored (Logbook) - that doesn’t correspond with the data on the phone. Today I actually never saw the watch rea time display drop below 176 bpm and never noticed any dropout - but the watch logbook shows this completely incompatible graph!
When I’m in VO2max zone for most of a workout I never get any ZoneSense data at all - however if I select that page in real time on the watch I see ZonSense working - just nothing stored or synced to the phone.
It’s a bit of a mess but I can work fine with it. I just feel that I should mention all of this if it can help others.
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@Ian-Beveridge in my case, after connection froze, the file on the phone was corrupted:
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@Belial Thank for posting! The problem you had looks very straightforward - a dropout and disconnection of your HR. My problem is that I’m getting two completely different HR graphs - and no ZoneSense graph at all.
Today - running the same 5K (400m loops) I did have some HR chest strap dropouts - but they show up clearly on the phone app and there was no disconnection. This happened because I didn’t have access to putting salt in my water for wetting the H10+ electrodes. I expect small dropouts if I don’t get the electrolyte correct and well concentrated - but this isn’t the problem I’m addressing here.
Today I checked the ZoneSense in real time about 15 minutes into the workout and it was working - but it was static right at the bottom of the green aerobic zone - while my heart rate was around 175 bpm which VO2max level. Needless to say there was no ZoneSense data available after I completed the workout.
Once again there are two completely different HR graphs - the one on the watch (logbook) being wildly wrong. It looks like the ZoneSense is somehow muddled up with the Heart Rate record - going by the Watch HR graph and what I saw when looking at ZS on the watch during the workout.
Here are the two very different graphs for the same workout…
and
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Consider ZoneSense as a look in the past (I’d say about 1-2min). It can’t be used to control such efforts like short repetitions or intervals (short I’d say less than 10mins; and it’s stated like that by Suunto).
I use ZoneSense in “real-time” to stay below LT1 (e.g. easy runs). For other workouts I run by power (Stryd) and use ZoneSense to verify the power-ranges.
E.g. in 3x10min sub-threshold run I expect ZoneSense to get “yellow” after 5mins. earliest. If it turns “red” (above LT2) at the end I use this as a sign that I went a bit too hard and assign the effort the next time.I still consider ZoneSense as a valueable tool but for real-time measurement (beside easy runs), it really is too laggy because it needs some amount of R-R recordings.
Anyway I was an “easy runs too fast” guy for the last 25 years, ZoneSense really helped me to get that right and I feel a lot better now, esp. because we all don’t get younger. -
I give up.
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@Ian-Beveridge Have you checked the quality of the HR measurements of your belt? Runalyze has a nice graph for it. The bad quality could be the reason for the missing thresholds and complete Zone Sense data in the app as well as for the different HR graphs between watch and app.
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@soisan Look at the graphs - the HR data from the belt is rock solid for the first two examples - that’s downloaded to the app from the watch. Why is the graph stored on the watch completely different from the graph correctly displayed on the phone app? It’s amazing that nobody can see this. The detailed phone app graph shows a completely consistent (and stable) HR recording.
Yesterday I went for a walk with just using the optical HR and the two graphs (watch/app) were identical - ZoneSense was activated but there was no data available after syncing. Basically - the software/firmware is a mess.
It was the same with the counter being blocked in real time ZoneSense - first admission that there was a problem was the recent firmware update with this error being listed as having been corrected.
I’m not going to be using ZoneSense at all now. I’ll see if by getting rid of ZoneSense also removes the problems with the stored graphs being different on watch and app.
So far I’ve identified 3 different problems - one has been fixed with the latest firmware update.
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@Ian-Beveridge just to calm you down that you are not seeing ghosts…I can also see that the watch doesn’t show any HR readings and that there seems to be a software issue with your watch, because the data are there!
The wrongly depicted HR values and ZS are probably related because ZS might only be calculated by the watch and the calculated values are then only transferred to the app. Because the software of your watch seems to be faulty, the HR is not correctly stored and used by your watch. The walk with the OHR can not give you any ZS as it only works with non-optical belts measuring RR data. Maybe there is also some software error with your watch handling the data from your belt.You need to somehow get the software fixed or accept it and forget about ZS which anyway is pretty debatable. But that’s another topic…
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@brave_dave
I’m calmed down now! 100% agreed with you. I’ve only used the “Race S” since March and the Suunto ecosystem is super complex but incredibly intuitive and practical. However it takes experience to reveal the whole system that we can control and it’s hard to know whether there’s a bug or if you’ve just set up something incorrectly.Just one question: Is there a protocol for giving feedback when a bug does rear its ugly head? …or is the forum monitored for that purpose anyway?
I was only using ZS because I knew my 5 Zone HR max setup was based on an inaccurate HR max figure. I’m coming back to running after a break of several years for injuries and I know from experience that my max heart rate is much higher running than cycling (I live in the French Alps and do both). The highest HR I could make to start with (March) was 184bpm and I couldn’t get higher - but when I stopped running about 5 years ago (aged 62) it had been 202bpm - so I spotted that ZoneSense seemed a way around this issue. Recently my HR max however has recovered up to 192 bpm without even sprinting - (because I simply am not fit enough yet to sprint fast). However I’m getting close enough to my innate capacity that I can start to use a HR max based system (which now gives me more sensible feedback) and can forget about the ZoneSense.
Back in 1993 I bought “The Heart rate Monitor” book by Sally Edwards and learned about how to use age based formulas to estimate max HR and calculate my max at 185 bpm. Now she doesn’t work for Polar but has a private business and on her website she declares that if you have trained all your life there is no lowering of max HR!!! I found that in my mid 50s I was topping out at 173 bpm (road bike) and was losing about 1bpm per year but then I decided to go ketogenic. For two years in ketosis my max HR every few weeks would creep up 1 bpm - until reaching 202 - when after a 40 min warm up I would see when sprinting uphill running. To me Zones based on HR max will always be the most critical and relevant data.Another issue is the minimum HR - which Suunto average over 25 minutes I believe. That’s a bummer because seeing your lowest dip during the night is often more meaningful - not a 25 minute average. I wouldn’t average my HR max over 25 minutes so why should I do that for my minimum?
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@Ian-Beveridge said in Zonesense readings:
Why is the graph stored on the watch completely different from the graph correctly displayed on the phone app?
That’s because the quality of the data from your belt is bad! Watch and app filter in this case the data differently. If you try to check it, with Runalyze for example, you’ll find a great percentage of anomalies in the corresponding graph.
