Zonesense readings

[Jan Suchánek]

@Brad_Olwin Hi Brad! You got anaerobic threshold even with about 1 minute only in anaerobic zone??? My Race1 gives me anaerobic threshold only once (on short bike commute to work), when I was too tired. And today strange thing happend. I got again both thresholds but on same value :-). Also on commute to work. About 200m before final hill my heart skips once, which is clearly visible on runalyze chart. But that happens to me time to time, I got ECG monitor implanted, thats another story. Strange, that zone sense detects both thresholds on same value.

[Jan Suchánek]

And one more thing comes to mind. The watch measures the lactate threshold, which should more or less correspond to the anaerobic threshold. But there’s no way to find out when the lactate threshold was detected, and I’d also like to know if I should actually use it in the heart rate zones as the anaerobic threshold, since Zonesense detects it only rarely.

[brave_dave]

@Brad_Olwin see all the questions about weird ZoneSense results and readings and people being confused on how to use them and what to do with them, if they can trust them…
That is why I tried to communicate the accuracy of ZoneSense and the algorithm behind it. Suunto definitely needs to do something…Maybe a better explanation in the app?

@Jan-Suchánek in this thread, the science behind ZoneSense was discussed and you can also find the latest scientific publication from the developers of DDFA/ZoneSense. Maybe this can help you out to interpret the results and understand what is going on.

https://forum.suunto.com/topic/13699/lactate-threshold-in-suunto-run/4

And also here

https://forum.suunto.com/post/175850

Forum is quite a mess with same things talked about in different threads…

[Jan Suchánek]

@brave_dave Thanks, maybe one of the reason is short activity with ZS in only a small part in the end.

[brave_dave]

@Jan-Suchánek no, it gives a value after collecting baseline results for 10 min. So the algorithm actually thinks it is a valuable result. Otherwise it would not show a result. If the result is actually true and reliable…who knows. Probably not at all, because it doesn’t make any sense and it is quite obvious. Still that’s the value it gives you…#reliability #accuracy

That’s why I referenced the other threads and the publication and would like Suunto to deliver more in-depth and eas information, so that people can check the results, the ZS throws out by themselves.

[MKPotts]

@Ian-Beveridge
If there is no r-r data in Runalyze - it’s the last of the charts/tables but you can’t miss it if you keep scrolling down - then your watch has recorded HR using the wrist optical sensor. This also would explain why you are not getting any ZoneSense data.

Assuming the H10 sensor battery isn’t low (and the H10 is still paired with the watch), this will be because your H10 belt is now so worn (or dirty if it hasn’t been washed regularly) that it can’t detect your heart electrical signals. If the belt can’t detect your heart signal, the watch won’t detect the belt.

For one of your earlier runs where you had partial ZoneSense data, upload the fit file to Runalyze. You will almost certainly see a plot looking something like this:

If you do get a plot like this, machine washing the belt might help but most likely you will need a new belt.
If you want to test further, try a run with your H10 again and verify it is connected by checking the pre-start icon and checking the optical sensor is off after you’ve started the activity. If it passes both of those checks but you get inconsistent HR data and limited or no ZoneSense data, check the r-r data in Runalyze and it will almost certainly look like the screenshot above.
A fault with your watch that was consistent with the information you’ve shared would require that:

The watch is choosing not to record into the fit file the r-r data that it is receiving from the H10.
The watch is accurately recording the HR values it is receiving (at the same time as the r-r values) from the H10
The watch is taking the accurate HR values it receives and transforms them into inaccurate values for live display.

This seems much less likely than a worn out belt - which would explain all of the problems you’re having - especially because you’ve already mentioned needing to use electrode gel and adjust belt tightness to get a good signal.

[Ian Beveridge]

@MKPotts The H10+ Polar belt is about 2 months old and I already changed the battery due to the current issues with the watch. It is paired and is picked up and announced as such immediately when the workout is selected. I use sea salt dissolved in water as an electrolyte for insuring a contact with the skin - only because over the last 30 years I’ve experienced many belts that momentarily lose signal. I never said I use electrode gel or that the belt is worn out - it’s new, fully charged and works impeccably well.

What everyone is very sadly ignoring is that there are blatant errors within the watch. The first one I reported a few weeks back was the ZS real time counter was freezing. Last week this was admitted through a correction made to the firmware. The second and persistent one is that the logged (Logbook access) HR graph on the watch is totally wrong (as posted with images) despite the numerical statistics included with it being correct - while simultaneously the HR data being synced with the phone app (graph) is completely correct. This is the same whether ZS is active or disactivated. It’s plain common sense that there is an error.

No - it is not my watch reverting to Optical measurement during the workout - because I’m checking the watch ever 200 metres for 5 kilometers - it’s fine.

Now - I was CORRECT about he “counter freezing” and I’m going to be correct about the graph being wrong - there is definitely a bug and so far we’re not even looking at ZoneSense for the issues I’ve mentioned - it’s misleading to say that any of these two issues were caused by the new H10+ belt.

Given this carry on I prefer to trust the H10+ than the verified faulty watch firmware.

I

[Ian Beveridge]

@Brad_Olwin
Quote " if no R-R data is in Runalyze then there is clearly something wrong with the belt and not the watch"

Quote Me “I’ve deselected ZoneSense from both running and walking.”

The graphical error in the Logbook widget is kind of really bad. The belt data displayed on the phone app simultaneously is first class.

No I’m not using the “Run” it’s a Race S and the H10+ belt is new and never drops out.

Last week the constant “counter freezing” error in the watch was updated - that wasn’t my H10+ belt causing that one - and it’s not causing the graphical display error either. Get this sorted and it’s another step forward. I’ll keep looking into the ZS issue but the graphics error in the watch indicates it’s clearly dodgy firmware.

[Ian Beveridge]

@MKPotts Here’s a plot from one of the few times I got ZoneSense to do anything. It doesn’t look anything like the plot you put up - but I know next to nothing about this subject.

[Brad_Olwin]

@Ian-Beveridge I have a Race S with me and will test but I am having no issues with ZS graphs in the app from Suunto Run, Vertical 2 and Race 2. So, I seriously doubt this is a watch firmware issue. I use ZS a lot.

[MKPotts]

@Ian-Beveridge
That data is ok - looking at it I’d assume you got ZoneSense data throughout that run - though anomalies at 0.8% is getting high. If you have data for a run where ZoneSense worked initially then froze, you will probably see the r-r data scatter where the ZS cuts out.

Turning off the ZoneSense app makes no difference to whether your watch receives r-r data from the H10 and records it in the fit file. The data is sent with the HR value and has been recorded in the file long before ZS arrived. I’m not aware that it’s possible for the H10 to send only HR and not r-r values.

I can’t speak for anyone else but I’m certainly not ignoring the discrepancies between your watch and the app, nor the dropouts in ZS. I’m saying that your pattern of data and problems are fully consistent with a failing belt and are exactly as I’ve experienced with the H10 and Suunto belt. My H10 first showed problems when it was about 6wks old.

I have no connection to Suunto, it doesn’t matter to me if the problem is your watch or the belt. I’ve simply been trying to help you fix the problem. But you already seem certain that your belt is fine and your watch isn’t, so I can’t add anything else.

[Ian Beveridge]

@Brad_Olwin Where did I say that I was having problems with ZS graphs??? Nowhere!
I have shown you a photograph of my watch Logbook HR graph along with a screengrab of my Phone App synced data. They are different but they are supposed to be the same. This is an error of the firmware 100%.

Just explain then how those graphs are allowed to be different. ZS was deactivated during this particular run

[isazi]

@Ian-Beveridge the explanation is quite simple, there are two different filters used, one in realtime to show the user the HR valies from the received R-R stream, and one used a posteriori in the app. Very noisy data produces what you show, nothing new.

[Ian Beveridge]

@MKPotts
I am not getting HRV data from the fit file when ZS is deactivated.
I have not had any dropouts of ZS data when it was working. The real time counter was jamming but data for the complete workout was still stored unaffected and synced to the phone app at the end. This “jamming” error was corrected in the latest watch firmware update.
Frequently (in running only) I get real time ZS but after the workout no trace of it is synced with the phone app - it’s just vanished.

I have said about a dozen times there is a graphics problem on the watch which nobody can explain. It’s the HR data not the ZS data. It’s cast iron proof there’s a firmware issue.

[Ian Beveridge]

@isazi That’s not what’s happening! When I observe the watch every 200 metres in real time it gives the same data (here averaging 180 bpm) as is later seen in the phone app. However after the run there is a wrong graph showing in the watch logbook.

[2b2bff]

@Ian-Beveridge ZoneSense data isn’t transferred from the watch to the app. There is some calculation done on the watch, that you can see on the watch, and different calculations are done in the app, that is presented to you within the app.

[isazi]

@Ian-Beveridge and this is always with the same sensor?

[Ian Beveridge]

@2b2bff That might be the case but when I upload a run to Runalyze it shows no trace of HRV data when the ZS is deactivated on the watch. I’m always using a paired chest strap so it’s not the optical HR. To get a look at the HRV data on Runalyze I had to dig out a cycling workout where the ZS data was successfully logged.

[Ian Beveridge]

@isazi Yes the same sensor - which gives correct real time feedback and ZS in real time and occasionally successfully stored and always an accurate phone app graph.
I never even paid attention to the watch Logbook graph before but was gobsmacked to see it is displaying junk.

[2b2bff]

@Ian-Beveridge this is of one of my activities, definitely recorded without the ZoneSense App. HRV on the left…