Race 2 accuracy
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@dreamer_ said in Race 2 accuracy:
@Joaquin this is very interesting. Btw, it’d be really nice if you could also add the Race S to the test (not for the shots here but to have internal tests for you now you are doing all this work) and also switch the position of all watches several times in the arm, so you know what are exactly the measurings of all watches in the very same position. I know it means many runs but it also means that you have the very same references several times for all (I think).
Thank you so much for this.
Race S is super accurate device
is a small but powerful machine. -
@dreamer_ I did an easy out-and-back route to the hill near my house and also changed the watch placement compared to yesterday’s loop. Here you can clearly see what we discussed yesterday: when you are not constantly repeating a technically difficult section like my loop, the differences become almost negligible — BUT THEY ARE STILL THERE.
I used the Pace Pro and the T-Rex 3 Pro on my right hand. Since it was an out-and-back route, theoretically the distance should be identical.You can also clearly see how the kilometer markers overlap almost perfectly on the V2, R2, and 970, which is honestly a very good sign regarding GPS consistency and distance measurement. The overlap between those devices is excellent.
The out-and-back format is actually very useful for this kind of testing because it removes many variables and makes small GPS deviations much easier to spot. In normal conditions most users would probably never notice these differences, but for people who regularly test devices or spend a lot of time in complex terrain, they are still visible.This is exactly why continuing to improve GPS filtering, track smoothing, and altitude handling remains so important, especially for mountain users and people training in difficult environments.
P.S. I know you enjoy testing devices, so try the T-Rex 3 Pro with the latest software version and you’ll understand why it is so important for us to keep working on good GPS and altimeter performance
Technical & Product Specialist – Suunto Iberia
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@Joaquin I completely agree with your posts. In fact, today I tested my wife’s Run and even in my track, I’m finding the Run more similar to the Vertical 2 than the T-Rex 3 Pro. Not only the GPS but specially things like the altimeter, where even a watch like the Run is clearly better than that watch.
I did not notice that since you posted your loop tracks, the differences were just too small to even have a look at them
It is a fantastic finding and super nice work. And one thing, these posts makes you think how nice are the quality testings you are doing.
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@dreamer_ you should be Suunto tester
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@Joaquin said in Race 2 accuracy:
@dreamer_ you should be Suunto tester
️I’d love that.
I’m super happy with my Vertical 2 Joaquin. It’s a fantastic device and super accurate in everything.
Thanks! -
@Joaquin wonderful work, Joaquín. Thank you!
Is there any estimate for when this update will arrive in Race 2?
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@joaquin there’s one thing. About the measuring wheel. I understand you are being sure that is well calibrated.
I know that this can be a very silly question and I was not going to ask, but there’s no reference at the posts about how you ensured the calibration and the wheel is the reference (and the possible point of failure). Just for that to keep everything detailed.
Thank you so much
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@dreamer_ I was thinking the same but for another reason. I see that the loop looks like a trail with many little stones and other tiny “obstacles”. In this case the wheel will slightly goes up and down because of the obstacles and measure more than the “flight” distance. You could think that this is negligible but I think it is not the case. To asses it, I have computed the ratio between a straight line and an undulating line where every 10cm there is a difference of 1cm of height. The ratio is 2.4%. So, far from negligible and close to the difference found between the watches and the wheel. Unfortunately, I don’t have a measuring wheel to test the hypothesis.
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@LGoSo I think there would be three points to consider here:
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As I understand it, the model is a Rolson 50799. The manufacturer doesn’t specify its accuracy, but in that price range, I believe it will be between 0.1% and 0.5% (meaning the margin of error would be between 0.5 m and 2.5 m over a distance of 500 m).
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For such uneven terrain, a wheel with a circumference of around 1 m might not be the most suitable option; for these cases, measuring wheels with a circumference of around 2 m are used.
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If the terrain has a noticeable slope, as seems to be the case, we wouldn’t just be assessing the accuracy of the watch’s GNSS, but also that of its altimeter. (In reality, the distance should be compared against the result of using the ‘3D Distance’ option on the watch, which I assume Suunto uses by default since it isn’t available as a toggle.)
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@chus1962 Another possible source of discrepancy is that in trail running you are on an uneven ground. The real distance between two steps can be slightly higher than the GPS distance. Again, to fix order of magnitude, if you compare a flight distance to an undulating terrain but this time with a difference of 5cm every 1m, there is a difference of 0.6%. But this time the GPS would be less accurate than the wheel.
And another one is how the altitude is managed by the watch. If the altitude is not correct, the watch is going to correct it but slowly in the first hour of the activity (or whatever is implemented). If the correction is taken as the real altitude, a false 3D distance could be estimated. I have a similar issue with the NGP on my coros with flat sections that are considered sloppy because I forget to adjust the real altitude at the start of the activity.
And about the wheel accuracy, the one given by the constructor is valid for a new wheel. If the wheel is not new, this number could be (quite) different.(I am not a specialist of whatever is discussed here. Just free thinking…)
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this discussion is getting very academic.
I don’t see the practical use of 1cm stones for the wheel and micro climbs when stepping on a stone.
I think this is more about different models agreeing when taken on the same activity.Race 2 due to design has been measuring short in some cases.
This will be changed with the next firmware for Race 2. -
@Egika In the post of Joaquín, there is a discrepancy between GPS of all watches and the wheel that was supposed to be the “true”. I just add some hypothesis that could question the fact that the wheel is the “true” distance and avoid that anyone could conclude from the test of Joaquín that all GPS watches are wrong.
Personally I don’t care too much about the GPS distance and don’t understand why people is worried about this tiny race 2 discrepancy. To each his own… -
@LGoSo On the same boat, mostly in this thread for fun, do not care about the “short” measurements, that actually makes me run faster to get the same numbers
But GPS will never be “true” measurement, especially on hilly terrain, since it is only GPS coordinates. So measuring wheel will always be “true” distance regardless of small inaccuracies. -
for those of us who train with intervals at specific paces in areas with good GPS reception and smooth surfaces, a difference like the current one of 2 to 5 seconds per kilometer is a significant error that distorts the progress of a training session, and going faster isn’t always the goal.
I understand that people who use their watches for hiking or who don’t care about pace might find this ridiculous, but I would ask those people to be understanding of those of us with other needs. -
@isaac.net at the end its called Race not Hike
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@isaac.net I completely agree with the importance of those pace errors. However, before the Race 2, I used a Race S. I regularly train on measured loops, so I know the discrepancy between the distance meassured by the watch and the actual distance. What catches my attention about this matter is that the underestimation errors in distance measurement with the Race 2 are similar to, or perhaps even smaller than, the overestimation errors I had with the Race S, and nobody ever complained about the Race S.
However, beyond the final error, I’ve had the feeling of irregular behavior in the distance measurement in the Race 2, the correction is certainly welcome.
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@chus1962 In this thread there are several users that did comparisons using a Race S and they are only finding discrepancies with the Race 2 but not the Race S
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@dreamer_ Just speaking from my own experience, which is the result of numerous repetitions, but yeah, under my own training conditions.
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@isaac.net I totally understand your needs but at least for me GPS is not usable for speed during (short) intervals even with good reception. I use a stryd pod for the speed. GPS derived speed is not stable enough.
But I don’t have a recent watch so perhaps it is usable now.
Personally, I don’t care being 2 to 5 seconds faster or slower than intervals specified speed. The reason is that usually the speed that has been asked for running the interval is an estimation based on previous races or tests. But those tests/races have also some uncertainty (temperature, sleep, improvement since the tests, …). I am pretty sure that two VO2Max speed tests realized back to back (with appropriate days rest in between) would give most of the time results with higher difference than 2%. Without talking about the accuracy of the instruments which is around 3% meaning that if you change the test laboratory (or the testing track), the results could be up to 3% different. So, to some margin (around 10’/km) I adapt my speed up or down according to my current feeling. I think that precision is more valuable than accuracy and for short intervals GPS speed is neither of them. Just my opinion…
