Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@juhis70 I have to admit, this is the most interesting issue I have seen since quite some time (2016)

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

And if we cannot get to the end of it, I would really like to get you a new watch (no refurbished etc). I could help in this process just FYI

juhis70

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos I’ve done some tests that may cover some of those.

In settings, I’ve run with setting “watch on right wirst” and “watch on right wrist, inside”, and “watch on left wrist, inside”. No notable change, same “barcode” as cadence graph.

My wife run a 1 km test run with this second watch. Cadence graph was OK, just two little spikes down that did not affect average cadence.

I run 1 km test run with watch on my right hand. That gave me correct cadence with two somewhat larger drops down, to exactly the “half cadence”. Here is the graph:

This would be almost ok, but I want to wear the watch on my left wrist, it is more natural to me and using the buttons with my left hand would be hard. I have multiple sclerosis, and the left side of my body, including my left arm, is partially numb. I don’t run “using arms”, my arms mainly swing along for balance, although in the correct rhythm, of course, opposite to legs. Because of this numbness I want to use the buttons with my right hand.

During runtime the watch shows the same cadence values as the graph afterwards. I have made a custom running mode with a screen that shows the current cadence.

EzioAuditore

I might be speaking b*it now but my sister has some sort of ‘energy’ that any watch she wears on her left hand something is happening. I.e.: swatch watches go faster or slower and sometime you can even see the date moving like she’s traveling in future or past. so the seconds hand move faster or slower. When she puts it on her right hand everything is normal. She owns fenix 5 and when we hiked she wore the watch on the left hand. guess what: no gps track was recorded. the watch works perfectly, but if she wears it on her left hand something goes ‘crazy’. You sure do not have the same?

Egika

@juhis70 said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

I have multiple sclerosis, and the left side of my body, including my left arm, is partially numb. I don’t run “using arms”, my arms mainly swing along for balance, although in the correct rhythm, of course, opposite to legs.

Maybe this is the reason for the acceleration sensor in the watch to sense something wrong.
Could it be your arm movement is different from like 90% other runners?

juhis70

@hristijan-petreski Wow that’s interesting. My left arm does feel “funny” (it was terrible first), like I had slept on it, but the partial numbness ever goes away. So why not, maybe it has also other “properties”. Devices like sports watches are packed with many sensitive sensors.

@andrasveres I forgot to answer you, but no, I don’t wear anything interfering near the watch. The HR belt (Suunto Smart Sensor) is nearest (and usually only) electrical device with me.

@Egika Yes that is probably true. But at least some have had same experiences with their (different) sports watches, I mentioned couple here https://forum.suunto.com/post/87271

@juhis70 not sure if the issue will be sorted out or not via software, but for the conditions you describe a footpod might be an option if cadence is important for you.

juhis70

@andrasveres That is true, I’ve considered that option. But because I can get good cadence graph postprocessing the FIT data, so I’m not sure I want just another gadget. A little work after every run, or a little electronics device… That is the question.

juhis70

Today’s shorter run, watch gives average cadence 55 rpm.

Here’s my graph constructed from .FIT, including original (faulty) cadence in red. corrected in green, and smoothed corrected cadence (6s moving avg) in blue. Horizontal red dotted line is original (faulty) average cadence 55 rpm, horizontal green dotted line is corrected average cadence 87 rpm.

Just posted this another run as an example that the data from accelerator/cadence sensor is not “random”, and can be used to construct a valid cadence graph. (And to show off my VO2max est ) Wow og Android emojis, who remembers those anymore. In Finland we have a saying, that boys named Jonne won’t remember: “Jonnet ei muista”.

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

Question.

If you run faster ie a fast km or a couple of meters how does the cadence look?

(It’s question from engineering )

juhis70

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos I usually run at fairly constant speed, avg pace little under 6min/km. There are some hills, ascents, descents that affect the pace. I overlayed pace and cadence graphs from today’s run. I don’t get much out of it.

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

Also just an idea. A pod for cadence / speed like stryd. Of course it’s pretty expensive.

That said feedback is sent again.

juhis70

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos

Here’s longer run from Monday (same run in first post), with heart rate also overlayed. At about 10 minutes begins longish uphill, heart rate raises, pace drops slower than 6/km, and cadence locks more often to correct value.

At about 20 minutes heart rate levels down, easy running, pace faster than 6/km, cadence locks to half value.

Seems that when I “push it” for example up hill, the cadence is more often right. I probably swing my arms more then. When I’m running easy, and cadence is usually half. Probably my arm movement is smaller.

juhis70

@juhis70 Recent and exactly the same cadence problem with Garmin FR?45 watches, and these are just like my words, including the wife part:

Screenshot from here: https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/running-multisport/f/forerunner-745/255598/ridiculous-cadence-when-running-on-treadmill/1293793#1293793

Sorry to post things from a different manufacturer, but that is just to prove my point that this kind of problem can exist, and could be handled by watch SW. It is not random data.

The cadence data from my S5 looks really bad at a glance. Although still nothing that SW could not fix. Cadence data from my today’s run:

Actually the line between the dots makes it look like there’s a smooth transition and maybe “in-between values”, but there are not. My today’s running data with Garmin-like representation (only dots, no lines) looks like this:

And here’s the SW corrected cadence (green) and a smoothed version of it, the BLUE line, on top of the original full/half-cadence (red dots):

S5 reported avg cadence 58 rpm, which is quite ridiculous value with average pace under 6/km. Correct avg cadence calculated from corrected cadence data is 87.2 rpm.

Aaannd, S5 reported 5888 steps for my today’s 10.9 km run. That’s still a bummer, too. Correct amount is over 11000 steps.

juhis70

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

And if we cannot get to the end of it, I would really like to get you a new watch (no refurbished etc). I could help in this process just FYI

The 3 month warranty of this refurbished watch is near end. So how do I proceed to have this replaced with a new unit? Do I make an Online Service Request and mention you, and this thread maybe, too? Is there any way to minimize or even eliminate the days without a watch? (We Finns have returned from our summer holidays, probably in Suunto service, too)

Egika

@juhis70 If I read correctly, the same issue (half cadence) occurs with another brand, this is backing my theory that the arm numbness with its different way of moving is causing the issue.
Semms like those cases have not been considered when developing the algos.

juhis70

@egika I’ve found cases on internet where half cadence occurs also Ambit2, and on other brands (Garmin FR). But they are not my watches and I don’t think their owners have numbness in arm. And my right hand is not numb, but gives occasionally half cadences, too (although less). My left hand arm swing is natural to eye (also right arm swing), I’ve seen videos of my running.

And the steps are all out of realistic values regardless of the arm. Always counts 25–45% less steps for walking and running than it shoud. Steps are not so important, but why do I buy expensive watch with two faulty features, when I could get better results with cheaper gadgets.

Give or take, even if this is eventually turns out to be a sensor problem, I think they (Suunto and Garmin) should improve their cadence algorithms. Because if you are running 6/km and your cadence is 45 rpm, which the watch claims, you should have abnormal stride length and two-meter long legs… My watch knows my height and can deduce I cannot have two meter legs. Better algorithms would give correct results even with borderline working sensor.

@juhis70 said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

arm swing is natural to eye

You may see as natural, but acceleration might vary and influence the algorithms.

why do I buy expensive watch with two faulty features, when I could get better results with cheaper gadgets.

A friendly advice if I may… buy your gadgets for your needs and save yourself from the disappointment of expecting from the ones you own will get better.

Give or take, even if this is eventually turns out to be a sensor problem, I think they (Suunto and Garmin) should improve their cadence algorithms.

Definitely, there is always room for improvements. The question remains if they have the willing to study these cases.

juhis70

I’m sure there are more than one “natural arm swings”. I think there are endless number. Unnatural swing is swinging the arm in wrong rhythm or strange path. My arm is numb. Not paralyzed.

I think it is not overkill to expect features from the watches/gadgets that are advertised to also work. I have now had two used (one second hand with warranty, one refurbished) S5:s with the same problems. The jury is still out to judge, if it is “my fault” or faulty devices.

I would be still happy user of Suunto Quest, since 2014, if it would connect to computer. I don’t need most of the features S5 has, but after I’ve bought it I expect the features to work. I would like to continue using Suunto’s products, because it is Finnish company.

@juhis70 I apologize if you misunderstood what I meant to say.

As last advice, you should try contact Suunto support again to replace the watch or get a refund and try another watch model from Suunto. @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos offered to help you out on that.

Good luck.

PS: loyalty is a great thing, more so if it’s a two way thing.