Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too

[A Former User]

@juhis70 said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

It may be a very rare problem, like 1/100 or 1/1000, people have different arm swings and running styles.

That was my second thought too, when I read your issue. The sensors are not prepared for your arm swing style.

I’ve have run with default running sports mode, and a custom sports mode (based on running). And I’ve done that with two watches already, with same problem. The chances of both having similarly corrupted sports profiles are so slim.

Not that slim if you consider, at least in my case when I sync my sport profiles with online Movescount service from and to my watch. Through I’m not sure how sport profiles are stored between Suunto 5 and Suunto app, it might not be your case.

I did try walking with Running profile yesterday, and that was ok.

Yes, but walking is a low cadence activity and you are having issue with high cadences. Hence, why I suggested you to do a running with your walking/hiking profile too.

I’m curious what will @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos find regarding this issue.

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Thanks!

When I’m saying it is a SW bug I don’t really mean it is a bug bug. There may be no faulty code in the watch. It is more like SW issue. It could be linked to borderline working sensor and/or borderline arm movement, and could be fixed by HW, too. But software could also correct the (maybe somewhat unusual, but still real) data. The current code just don’t take this into consideration.

It is usually cheaper to fix things in SW than HW

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@juhis70

Ruling out some data parsing bug, these are your raw data for Cadence. Same issue exists in the raw data.

What I will do is open a bug on the watch side. I cannot promise that it will get fixed and when but I ll be getting updates on the issue.

I ll also ping support to see if there are more cases like this

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Thank you! Keeping my fingers crossed but not holding my breath!

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@juhis70 as a last request of “test in real life”. What happens if you wear the watch on the inner part of the wrist? Also at the other hand.
And I wonder what will the cadence field show during runtime. Does it also show these peaks?

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Actually the cadence graph for today’s run looks the worst, no locking to the correct cadence, just spikes. On previous runs there was always locking to the correct cadence, too, not only half cadence. Maybe the walk yesterday using Running mode did something. Maybe not.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@juhis70 I have to admit, this is the most interesting issue I have seen since quite some time (2016)

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

And if we cannot get to the end of it, I would really like to get you a new watch (no refurbished etc). I could help in this process just FYI

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos I’ve done some tests that may cover some of those.

In settings, I’ve run with setting “watch on right wirst” and “watch on right wrist, inside”, and “watch on left wrist, inside”. No notable change, same “barcode” as cadence graph.

My wife run a 1 km test run with this second watch. Cadence graph was OK, just two little spikes down that did not affect average cadence.

I run 1 km test run with watch on my right hand. That gave me correct cadence with two somewhat larger drops down, to exactly the “half cadence”. Here is the graph:

This would be almost ok, but I want to wear the watch on my left wrist, it is more natural to me and using the buttons with my left hand would be hard. I have multiple sclerosis, and the left side of my body, including my left arm, is partially numb. I don’t run “using arms”, my arms mainly swing along for balance, although in the correct rhythm, of course, opposite to legs. Because of this numbness I want to use the buttons with my right hand.

During runtime the watch shows the same cadence values as the graph afterwards. I have made a custom running mode with a screen that shows the current cadence.

[EzioAuditore]

I might be speaking b*it now but my sister has some sort of ‘energy’ that any watch she wears on her left hand something is happening. I.e.: swatch watches go faster or slower and sometime you can even see the date moving like she’s traveling in future or past. so the seconds hand move faster or slower. When she puts it on her right hand everything is normal. She owns fenix 5 and when we hiked she wore the watch on the left hand. guess what: no gps track was recorded. the watch works perfectly, but if she wears it on her left hand something goes ‘crazy’. You sure do not have the same?

[Egika]

@juhis70 said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

I have multiple sclerosis, and the left side of my body, including my left arm, is partially numb. I don’t run “using arms”, my arms mainly swing along for balance, although in the correct rhythm, of course, opposite to legs.

Maybe this is the reason for the acceleration sensor in the watch to sense something wrong.
Could it be your arm movement is different from like 90% other runners?

[juhis70]

@hristijan-petreski Wow that’s interesting. My left arm does feel “funny” (it was terrible first), like I had slept on it, but the partial numbness ever goes away. So why not, maybe it has also other “properties”. Devices like sports watches are packed with many sensitive sensors.

@andrasveres I forgot to answer you, but no, I don’t wear anything interfering near the watch. The HR belt (Suunto Smart Sensor) is nearest (and usually only) electrical device with me.

@Egika Yes that is probably true. But at least some have had same experiences with their (different) sports watches, I mentioned couple here https://forum.suunto.com/post/87271

[A Former User]

@juhis70 not sure if the issue will be sorted out or not via software, but for the conditions you describe a footpod might be an option if cadence is important for you.

[juhis70]

@andrasveres That is true, I’ve considered that option. But because I can get good cadence graph postprocessing the FIT data, so I’m not sure I want just another gadget. A little work after every run, or a little electronics device… That is the question.

[juhis70]

Today’s shorter run, watch gives average cadence 55 rpm.

Here’s my graph constructed from .FIT, including original (faulty) cadence in red. corrected in green, and smoothed corrected cadence (6s moving avg) in blue. Horizontal red dotted line is original (faulty) average cadence 55 rpm, horizontal green dotted line is corrected average cadence 87 rpm.

Just posted this another run as an example that the data from accelerator/cadence sensor is not “random”, and can be used to construct a valid cadence graph. (And to show off my VO2max est ) Wow og Android emojis, who remembers those anymore. In Finland we have a saying, that boys named Jonne won’t remember: “Jonnet ei muista”.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

Question.

If you run faster ie a fast km or a couple of meters how does the cadence look?

(It’s question from engineering )

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos I usually run at fairly constant speed, avg pace little under 6min/km. There are some hills, ascents, descents that affect the pace. I overlayed pace and cadence graphs from today’s run. I don’t get much out of it.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

Also just an idea. A pod for cadence / speed like stryd. Of course it’s pretty expensive.

That said feedback is sent again.

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos

Here’s longer run from Monday (same run in first post), with heart rate also overlayed. At about 10 minutes begins longish uphill, heart rate raises, pace drops slower than 6/km, and cadence locks more often to correct value.

At about 20 minutes heart rate levels down, easy running, pace faster than 6/km, cadence locks to half value.

Seems that when I “push it” for example up hill, the cadence is more often right. I probably swing my arms more then. When I’m running easy, and cadence is usually half. Probably my arm movement is smaller.

[juhis70]

@juhis70 Recent and exactly the same cadence problem with Garmin FR?45 watches, and these are just like my words, including the wife part:

Screenshot from here: https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/running-multisport/f/forerunner-745/255598/ridiculous-cadence-when-running-on-treadmill/1293793#1293793

Sorry to post things from a different manufacturer, but that is just to prove my point that this kind of problem can exist, and could be handled by watch SW. It is not random data.

The cadence data from my S5 looks really bad at a glance. Although still nothing that SW could not fix. Cadence data from my today’s run:

Actually the line between the dots makes it look like there’s a smooth transition and maybe “in-between values”, but there are not. My today’s running data with Garmin-like representation (only dots, no lines) looks like this:

And here’s the SW corrected cadence (green) and a smoothed version of it, the BLUE line, on top of the original full/half-cadence (red dots):

S5 reported avg cadence 58 rpm, which is quite ridiculous value with average pace under 6/km. Correct avg cadence calculated from corrected cadence data is 87.2 rpm.

Aaannd, S5 reported 5888 steps for my today’s 10.9 km run. That’s still a bummer, too. Correct amount is over 11000 steps.