Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too

[A Former User]

@juhis70 would be interesting to see the results of a running with the walking/hiking mode too. Just out of curiosity, do you wear anything near your watch that could interfere with it?!

[juhis70]

Today’s run

The SW makes here a bad (wrong) choise selecting the “half cadence” frequency from all the possibilities, considering for example speed.

Look at four record pairs (8 records), that is four consequent seconds, from .FIT file, especially cadence and speed:

1852. record

• cadence: 88 [rpm] <— ALL GOOD EVERYTHING
• distance: 2.661 [km]
• heart_rate: 121 [bpm]
• speed: 10.296 [km/h]
• vertical_speed: -0.072 [km/h]

1853. hrv

• time: (0.496, 0.49) [s]

1854. record

• cadence: 87 [rpm] <— ALL GOOD EVERYTHING
• distance: 2.664 [km]
• heart_rate: 122 [bpm]
• speed: 10.296 [km/h]
• vertical_speed: -0.072 [km/h]

1855. hrv

• time: (0.498, 0.496) [s]

1856. record

• cadence: 44 [rpm] <— WHAT JUST HAPPENED? WRONG CHOICE!
• distance: 2.667 [km]
• heart_rate: 120 [bpm]
• speed: 10.296 [km/h] <— SAME SPEED! 44 IS IMPOSSIBLE CADENCE
• vertical_speed: -0.072 [km/h]

1857. hrv

• time: (0.495, 0.491) [s]

1858. record

• cadence: 44 [rpm] <— WE’RE SCREWED
• distance: 2.67 [km]
• heart_rate: 122 [bpm]
• speed: 10.296 [km/h]
• vertical_speed: -0.072 [km/h]

If I take the FIT data and manipulate it, I can reconstruct a good cadence graph, and calculate correct average cadence. Here’s the cadence graph overlayed with my corrected graph:

I could wear the watch on my bicep or my leg or something, but I don’t want to. It may be bad sensor, but then it is already second in row, which would be bad quality. And to me, the sensor seems to give good values but the SW chooses wrong. To me this is not a HW bug but a SW bug.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@juhis70 said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

To me this is not a HW bug but a SW bug.

Lets investigate that.

I ll need the workout id (SA link share) to get the raw data and check.

That said , if its SW we should have some more users with the same issue.

Also just making sure you are using Android Suunto app right?

[A Former User]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

That said , if its SW we should have some more users with the same issue.

That’s why I suggested to try different sport profiles to rule out a corrupted profile case (aka software issue).

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos It may be a very rare problem, like 1/100 or 1/1000, people have different arm swings and running styles. It may also be more common, but many people don’t look the average cadence or don’t find the cadence graph from SA (you have to swipe it). All watch owners don’t run.

It may even be a newish bug, like someone “simplified” or “optimized” the code handling accelerate sensor data or something. (I’m a developer myself…)

I’ve have run with default running sports mode, and a custom sports mode (based on running). And I’ve done that with two watches already, with same problem. The chances of both having similarly corrupted sports profiles are so slim. I did try walking with Running profile yesterday, and that was ok.

I’m using Android SA. I just clicked “send logs to Suunto” in Suunto App and it did something.

Is the ID (60c9975495d42602d25bedcb) enough or do you need the full link?

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@juhis70 I ll check the raw data sec

[A Former User]

@juhis70 said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

It may be a very rare problem, like 1/100 or 1/1000, people have different arm swings and running styles.

That was my second thought too, when I read your issue. The sensors are not prepared for your arm swing style.

I’ve have run with default running sports mode, and a custom sports mode (based on running). And I’ve done that with two watches already, with same problem. The chances of both having similarly corrupted sports profiles are so slim.

Not that slim if you consider, at least in my case when I sync my sport profiles with online Movescount service from and to my watch. Through I’m not sure how sport profiles are stored between Suunto 5 and Suunto app, it might not be your case.

I did try walking with Running profile yesterday, and that was ok.

Yes, but walking is a low cadence activity and you are having issue with high cadences. Hence, why I suggested you to do a running with your walking/hiking profile too.

I’m curious what will @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos find regarding this issue.

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Thanks!

When I’m saying it is a SW bug I don’t really mean it is a bug bug. There may be no faulty code in the watch. It is more like SW issue. It could be linked to borderline working sensor and/or borderline arm movement, and could be fixed by HW, too. But software could also correct the (maybe somewhat unusual, but still real) data. The current code just don’t take this into consideration.

It is usually cheaper to fix things in SW than HW

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@juhis70

Ruling out some data parsing bug, these are your raw data for Cadence. Same issue exists in the raw data.

What I will do is open a bug on the watch side. I cannot promise that it will get fixed and when but I ll be getting updates on the issue.

I ll also ping support to see if there are more cases like this

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Thank you! Keeping my fingers crossed but not holding my breath!

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@juhis70 as a last request of “test in real life”. What happens if you wear the watch on the inner part of the wrist? Also at the other hand.
And I wonder what will the cadence field show during runtime. Does it also show these peaks?

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Actually the cadence graph for today’s run looks the worst, no locking to the correct cadence, just spikes. On previous runs there was always locking to the correct cadence, too, not only half cadence. Maybe the walk yesterday using Running mode did something. Maybe not.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@juhis70 I have to admit, this is the most interesting issue I have seen since quite some time (2016)

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

And if we cannot get to the end of it, I would really like to get you a new watch (no refurbished etc). I could help in this process just FYI

[juhis70]

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos I’ve done some tests that may cover some of those.

In settings, I’ve run with setting “watch on right wirst” and “watch on right wrist, inside”, and “watch on left wrist, inside”. No notable change, same “barcode” as cadence graph.

My wife run a 1 km test run with this second watch. Cadence graph was OK, just two little spikes down that did not affect average cadence.

I run 1 km test run with watch on my right hand. That gave me correct cadence with two somewhat larger drops down, to exactly the “half cadence”. Here is the graph:

This would be almost ok, but I want to wear the watch on my left wrist, it is more natural to me and using the buttons with my left hand would be hard. I have multiple sclerosis, and the left side of my body, including my left arm, is partially numb. I don’t run “using arms”, my arms mainly swing along for balance, although in the correct rhythm, of course, opposite to legs. Because of this numbness I want to use the buttons with my right hand.

During runtime the watch shows the same cadence values as the graph afterwards. I have made a custom running mode with a screen that shows the current cadence.

[EzioAuditore]

I might be speaking b*it now but my sister has some sort of ‘energy’ that any watch she wears on her left hand something is happening. I.e.: swatch watches go faster or slower and sometime you can even see the date moving like she’s traveling in future or past. so the seconds hand move faster or slower. When she puts it on her right hand everything is normal. She owns fenix 5 and when we hiked she wore the watch on the left hand. guess what: no gps track was recorded. the watch works perfectly, but if she wears it on her left hand something goes ‘crazy’. You sure do not have the same?

[Egika]

@juhis70 said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

I have multiple sclerosis, and the left side of my body, including my left arm, is partially numb. I don’t run “using arms”, my arms mainly swing along for balance, although in the correct rhythm, of course, opposite to legs.

Maybe this is the reason for the acceleration sensor in the watch to sense something wrong.
Could it be your arm movement is different from like 90% other runners?

[juhis70]

@hristijan-petreski Wow that’s interesting. My left arm does feel “funny” (it was terrible first), like I had slept on it, but the partial numbness ever goes away. So why not, maybe it has also other “properties”. Devices like sports watches are packed with many sensitive sensors.

@andrasveres I forgot to answer you, but no, I don’t wear anything interfering near the watch. The HR belt (Suunto Smart Sensor) is nearest (and usually only) electrical device with me.

@Egika Yes that is probably true. But at least some have had same experiences with their (different) sports watches, I mentioned couple here https://forum.suunto.com/post/87271

[A Former User]

@juhis70 not sure if the issue will be sorted out or not via software, but for the conditions you describe a footpod might be an option if cadence is important for you.

[juhis70]

@andrasveres That is true, I’ve considered that option. But because I can get good cadence graph postprocessing the FIT data, so I’m not sure I want just another gadget. A little work after every run, or a little electronics device… That is the question.