Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race

[ollemelin]

@Łukasz-Szmigiel

Yeah, I think a Quick start is one reason behind the issues im having. My wifes garmin 735 takes a good bit longer to aquire gps signal. Ideal i would like to have a big screen before I press start reling me how good signal is from 1 to 5 :).

With that said, I still have a lot more spikes in my data compared to others in same conditions. Maybe garmin have an algoritm that smooths over those spikes. I don’t know.

I did order a stryd yesterday so hopefully that will lower my blood pressure. I live in Sweden and there are trees and forests everywhere so GPS-readings are never going to be that precise anyway.

[Łukasz Szmigiel]

@ollemelin if you can, try waiting for a little bit longer on a start screen before you actually hit “Start”. I used to stand in place where sky visibility is good and slowly rotate with my arm in front but I no longer do it since the firmware that introduced Beidou is good enough to begin the workout without any extra rituals

Some extra data about GNSS quality on a start screen would be a nice addition but I doubt it honestly. Suunto seems to be on a “don’t bother users with too much data” side and I think it’s wise.

I did have a glimpse on my last workout on QS and Runalyze and it really seems that Suunto is doing its magic with fusedspeed which results in those strange offsets in recorded paths. This is pretty logical - if GNSS is poor and the path would be wobbly but the pace takes priority, the line has to be straight. So the error at the beginning of a turn will persist until the direction changes above certain threshold.

1. This is the start area - you can see that GNSS quality was poor by looking on altitude diagram. It should be around 120 meters but is way higher and dropping as I run (I have an S5, so there’s no baro). But the pace is rock steady regardless of poor GNSS readings. Also, after enabling “Show points” in QS, it seems that the actual points on the map are more spread apart in this area than in the open - so the watch must behave differently if it’s unsure of it’s position.
   

2. Now take a look on the same area on Runalyze and its pace chart - it oscillates like mad between 5 and 8 min/km.
   

So it really seems to me that Suunto is doing good job to provide as accurate data as possible during the run but since it’s impossible to do this without sacrificing something, it chooses to do a recorded track offset in order to provide more accurate tempo and speed readings.

I have never seen anything like it before with different hardware - it’s more common to have a zig-zag pattern when GNSS reception is poor, as the path is constantly drifting and it’s being reflected on the record.

But if you think about it - it’s better to have more accurate predictions about pace and speed than a GNSS path that is constantly wobbling from right to left. But the effect is a constant offset until something dramatic happens (I assume it’s either a sudden change in direction, speed or GNSS precision increase).

Neat and practical programming.

Btw. @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos, kudos for “Show points” in QS - it’s great for analyzing such events. You can clearly see that the watch has two modes of saving data where the dots are either more or less condensed - I assume it’s related to GNSS reception.

[freeheeler]

I think something went bananas today… some segments were right to the point and some completely off

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@TELE-HO COROS + VANTAGE + SONYS had issues yesterday. Logically SOny chip issue. If you need links …

[Mff73]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos
I had bad GPS yesterday as well, but no Sony in my Spartan GPS Fix was long, need to sync again AGPS, and track is bad
But no complain, i enjoyed my almost nighty, and totally rainy workout

[surfboomerang]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos
Only Sony? Can this be chip specific? GPS errors affects all chips right?

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@surfboomerang not sure, but for sure I saw sony issues.

Check the COROS group. They had huge offsets and also our fieltest team

[Łukasz Szmigiel]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos this is pretty crazy how it affects whole range of products that use the same chip. But on the other hand it shows how much can still be done with GPS firmware to optimize it.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@Łukasz-Szmigiel typically this can also be caused by a combination of wrong AGPS + FW

For example one time one Galileo Sat was down, aka should not be used, Sony forgot to update the AGPS to include this change and voila. I was steady at a spot locked to that orbiting sat going with crazy speeds around my house.

[Łukasz Szmigiel]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos cool story. It seems that the chip relies heavily on AGPS data. I wonder how much really and what will happen in the event of AGPS malfunction (ie. system outage on Sony side).

[sartoric]

@Łukasz-Szmigiel
In the ol’times getting a fix on an handheld gps took a lot

Usually you had to turn it on when you almost reached the location, just to start looking the sky, so you had to wait only 5/10 minutes before having a good readings

… then phones started using agps …

[freeheeler]

@sartoric
I remember that time… when I carried a backpack for the gps device

[sartoric]

@TELE-HO
… and external cabled antenna

[freeheeler]

@sartoric
that was possible with mine, but I did not invest in that

[A Former User]

In general for me GPS on S9 is very good and reliable. Some days ago I meassured a typical route via google maps. S9 said exactly the same distance after running. Also very much important and outstanding is FusedAlti. It went so incredible accurate! Wow!

[Łukasz Szmigiel]

@sartoric I remember that too. But A in AGPS should mean assisted, right? Not Absolutely useless untill on LTE

Jokes aside, things like this year’s february bug or offline Galileo sat that @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos mentioned shouldn’t interfere with GPS receiver more than with a longer fix.

[A Former User]

@sartoric said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

@Łukasz-Szmigiel
In the ol’times getting a fix on an handheld gps took a lot

Usually you had to turn it on when you almost reached the location, just to start looking the sky, so you had to wait only 5/10 minutes before having a good readings

… then phones started using agps …

I don’t know how they manage it, but on the garmin etrex 30x which has no connection to internet the fix is quick.
That is something that sometimes puts me off into newer devices…you seem you can’t get that “pick it and go” you had with old ones like etrex 30x and ambit 2/3.
I remember when I got the ambit 2 even without same days sync it was blazing fast to catch gps signal.
With the polar rc3 I had before, not as fast but max wiating 1min-2min.
Today I hear about continuous resets, having to wait sometime after sync so agps files can do this and that on the watch, plus gps firmware.
Ok, so what is the added value that this new devices bring in order to compensate all the trouble (sincerelly asking)
?

[Bulkan]

@André-Faria said in [Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate

Today I hear about continuous resets, having to wait sometime after sync so agps files can do this and that on the watch, plus gps firmware.
Ok, so what is the added value that this new devices bring in order to compensate all the trouble (sincerelly asking)

How many resets did you have? Just curious.

[A Former User]

@Bulkan said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

@André-Faria said in [Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate

Today I hear about continuous resets, having to wait sometime after sync so agps files can do this and that on the watch, plus gps firmware.
Ok, so what is the added value that this new devices bring in order to compensate all the trouble (sincerelly asking)

How many resets did you have? Just curious.

With the ambit 2? None. Ambit 3 one.

[Bulkan]

@André-Faria with my s9 none. With my s7 none. With my Spartan none.

So the point is not how bad are our watches, the point is about how good are our watches. Let’s put some positive here.