Activity Tags & New ZoneSense (DDFA Index)
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I’ve had my vertical for a few months now so have a good amount of runs / rides on the sunnto app…
Knowing both my LT1 and LT2 HR thresholds, and with being a previous user of Training Peaks, I ensured from day 1 that my zones were setup correctly on the vertical - for both run (HR & Pace) and bike (HR & Power (FTP)).
With the watch adopting a 5 zone model across all the intensity measures, I just ensured my LT1 was set as the upper Z2 value and LT2 at the Z4 limit. Confident this is working correctly as the TSS values I’m seeing (be that HR (hrTSS), Pace (rTSS) or Power based (TSS)) correspond to within a single point of what TP calculates.
What I can’t wrap my head around is why the tags that are added to activities after uploading to the app don’t seem consistent from one day to the next i.e. an easy upper Z1 / low Z2 run can be tagged ‘Aerobic’ one day and then the next ‘Aerobic / Anaerobic’ when the ‘time in zone’ is practically like for like and I go nowhere near my LT1 threshold.
Listening to how the new Zone Sense works, I’m wondering if the tags have actually been built off this new (DDFA index) and they’re actually more weighted to HRV (r-r) vs raw HR BPM. It would certainly seem like that’s the case, but interested to hear other users thoughts who are in tune with their physiology and experience with the tagging process in suunto app?
Cheers, Paul.
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@Grundy82 AFAIK workout effort tag is not linked at all with ZoneSense, it comes from the training zone classification based on the HR zone distribution and workout length as well.
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@herlas yes, that was my understanding too, however I’ve examples of activities where I spend all my time well below my LT1 HR threshold (or upper limit for Z2 in the 5 zone model on all Sunnto watches), yet those activities will often be tagged as ‘Aerobic / Anaerobic’, which for a run at that intensity is simply incorrect. They should be tagged ‘Aerobic’.
My hypothesis is having seen the official release of the Zone Sense feature today, and based on the documentation with that, it’s possible the tagging may have been feed (in part) by that model historically while it was being developed - again this is pure hypothesis, but what I can say, is the runs I have where I’m spending 100% of the time in either Z1, or very low Z2, should always be tagged ‘Aerobic’ IF they’re using the upper z2 as the LT1 (aerobic threshold). Which leads me to think something else was / is at play in how the tags are calculated…
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@Grundy82 not sure if Suunto was putting LT1 a the upper Z2 limit, I don’t think so.
On the contrary, I’m sure Z4 upper value is used as the threshold for power and HR/pace.Will see what others chime in
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If you have a vertical, you need all your zones to be set up properly - HR, pace and power, else the app categorises it wrong based on one of them. Power especially has a very different zone setup to HR.
Mine was junk for a while till I updated all of them.
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like @The_77 said you have to proper setup hr, power, and pace zones. Not so easy, because you have to do some test running protocols to get your critical power value (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTCQxo18-LsfWt1gnHyEJ0nUccxhWhJAMzaS9qmWpvoBGqcuC4vpO08fbn2zA8jD_G1S2eHtlPFlEo1/pub
or roughly estimate
https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vR8wNT_OF3TCF0MsM3ixnXtoKaQGNvyQ94mnnNLe2ujdwM5tTTHcfFyszDtFx2ZJlTxC0Kyyh-4pQs9/pub )https://superpowercalculator.com/calculators/6
.for the tempo zones i found no ideal way to test them and get good zones. maybe somebody has an idea. In the past i did lactate field testing and lactate treadmill tests. the most accurate zones for me where from the lactate field test.
if some of the zones are not correct you get wrong taggs. I don’t know how much they value hr, power , pace against each other for tagging. That would be interesting.
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@The_77 agreed, and as alluded to in my OP you’ll note I make reference to ensuring from day 1 of having the watch all the zones across run and bike had been configured for HR, Pace and Power based on my known LT1 and LT2 metrics across each of those measures (HR, Pace & Power).
I’ve been using TP for a long time, and regular test (including having been lab tested in the past) so I know the values I’ve dropped into the watch for the zones are correct - the only assumption I had to make was where are Suunto drawing their line in the sand as far as LT2 is concerned, and through process of elimination (using TP as a reference) can confirm they’re using the upper z4 for HR, Pace and Power as TSS will match when I mirror those values. Note : rTSS is calculated against the upper z4 pace value based on the activities NGP.
What I don’t understand, is given these are clearly the correct inputs for the TSS calculation, how can a run in mainly Z1 and low Z2 be tagged ‘Aerobic / Aenarobic’? There must be something else being considered when the tag is generated in Suunto app, and that’s my question.
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@Sebastian-Wagner-0 thanks - see response to @The_77 as applies to your reply too re: correct zones etc.
It’s an interesting topic and while it’s not a massive issue, I’m just interest to understand how they’re arriving at the tagged value as something doesn’t stack up for my activities despite me knowing (very precisely) my zones across all measures.
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I am with you on this topic. I Like to understand the Development and Parameter of the Taggs a bit more. And Know how much They weigh the different zones and Parameter against each other to get the different taggs
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@Grundy82
Realy cool that you have up to Date zones. How do you manage to keep them up to Date?
One more question what Test do you use to Define your pace zones in Running? -
@Sebastian-Wagner-0 slightly different for run and bike…but here you go :
Bike: I use Trainer Road and have done for a number of years. In the early days using TR, I’d do a 20 ramp test, which I much prefer(ed) than a 40min all out. In the last 18 months I now rely on their AI FTP detection feature, which I exclusively use to keep on top of my FTP. When that changes, I always update my power zones to ensure accurate TSS.
Run: while I’ve done a lab test (gas exchange) in the past, that’s not practical on a regular basis, so I now field test. I should do it more often than I do, but it will depend on my training goals and races. I use the well knowing 30min protocol that’s recommended by many coaches, so a warm up into a 30min consistent effort - I take my Avg HR for the last 20mins as my LTHR and same for pace.
I’ve found the more times I’ve done this test, the more accurate the results have become.
I also have a styrd pod, and have read up a lot on Mr Palladinos documentation around his approach to running with power. It’s very interesting, but I never took to it and now only use the pod for pace on the treadmill tbh.
What I would say, it I used my run CP from when I tested with styrd as the Z4 value on my vertical. Obviously the power values will not be like for like, so it might be that which is impacting the tags…I’ll have a look. I do think from when I looked at the suunto power values, they didn’t seem too dissimilar to those I used to get from the styrd for the same pace / HR
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Cool. Thx for your insights.
I did the run Field Test with the Suunto + App. Aerobic threshold, it think it was the test you mentioned. There i found a Chart to get all my hr zones. But i found no Chart to calculate the pace zones. Do you have a Chart to calculate the pace zones from a Field Test?
I will try to do a power Test Protocol After my next Trail Ultra with the onboard power from Suunto. Maybe then i get better values
Stryd and Suunto power for me Are in the easy Running Similar but Not the Same . At the Moment i use the roughly estimate Chart from Steve palladino.Which tss do you let the Suunto App use? Automatically After a run i See the pTSS, now i Found out i Could Change that to the other versions of TSS and they differ a Little Bit. Of i Change the tss, Suunto App asks me if i will Save the Change for the Workout in the Future.
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@Grundy82 said in Activity Tags & New ZoneSense (DDFA Index):
@The_77 agreed, and as alluded to in my OP you’ll note I make reference to ensuring from day 1 of having the watch all the zones across run and bike had been configured for HR, Pace and Power based on my known LT1 and LT2 metrics across each of those measures (HR, Pace & Power).
Yeah I skim read only HR, my bad
What I don’t understand, is given these are clearly the correct inputs for the TSS calculation, how can a run in mainly Z1 and low Z2 be tagged ‘Aerobic / Aenarobic’? There must be something else being considered when the tag is generated in Suunto app, and that’s my question.
That I don’t know, but for me at least it changed the mainly Aerobic / Anaerobic to Long Aerobic when I did the proper inputs (mainly correcting power). Beyond that, I couldn’t say, only that this has existed this way since these tags came in.
Now I see you didn’t mention running power in the OP, have you set that yet?
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@The_77 for running power I’d used zones from an (old) stryd CP test - my logic was the suunto run power seemed to correlate pretty well based on what I’d seen. Having looked at some of my z1 / 2 runs with the vertical, where 100% of my time is in those zones for pace and hr, a significant % is in power zone 3 for those same runs. That may well be what’s causing the tags to report ‘aerobic / anaerobic’ - I’ve now adjusted the zone distribution, mainly where upper z2 ends, so will see if they makes any difference on my next run. Will report back - thanks.
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@The_77 two runs both tagged ‘aerobic’ following me updating the zone 2 upper limit for power - the 2nd of those runs would’ve certainly been tagged ‘aerobic / anaerobic’ prior to the power zone change despite the HR and Pace being 80/20 (zone 1/2). I’ll keep a close eye on it over the coming weeks, but it would seem that was indeed the issue causing the incorrect tagging despite both HR and Pace being setup correctly (for me).
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@Grundy82 glad to hear it! Just a quirk of the tagging I suppose that if one data point isn’t setup it defaults to the “hardest” interpretation of any data.
