Suunto ZoneSense

[timecode]

@Brad_Olwin ah ok, I thought data in watch == data in SA. Good to know, thanks. Will “investigate” further.

[Stefano M64]

The past week a made a short easy run (I’m not a runner) primarily to check if the VO2max estimation I got by walking (46.1-46.2) was similar to the one I would obtain by running. Since it resulted to be 45.5, the answer is yes, they are pretty close, ok.
The part on which I would like to have an opinion from someone more expert on the argument is relative to the ZoneSense: I walked for 10 minutes with a cadence of 55/60 then increased to about 70, the HR increased from about 100, to 150-160. For most of the time DDFA index was in the aerobic green zone, with two period in the yellow zone, which started at about 150 bpm the first time and at 160 the second time. Previously, I got 3 estimations of the aerobic threshold (134-136-137) while training at the gymn. For my age (61) the usual formula gives an HRmax of 159 pbm, another one I found (213-0.65*age) gives 173 pbm, from which I should have the aerobic threshold at about 134, in line with the previous estimation. So, I was quite surprised to see the transition from ZS green to yellow zones at 150 pbm or even at 160 pbm. By following this forum, I learned that HR zones based on age are just a vague indication, however I’m bit scared to be pushed to training to hard, what I want is just to keep fit (but I like to experiment and understand). Any comment is welcome!

[GiPFELKiND]

@Stefano-M64 i never would use zone sense as training indication or as reason to train harder as you feel. Go to an medical doctor and make a lactat running Test. There you got your right and personal heart rate and Training zones. Good Option here is to do this with Spiroergometrie system.

[Egika]

@Stefano-M64 the use of HR to define a threshold for aerobic/anaerobic/VO2max regions is not a fixed one that is valid over many weeks. It is not even valid for multiple days.
This is why lactate tests on a treadmill or cycle are valid for the time of testing only.

ZoneSense gives you a live (or after activity) information about your body status.
What you are seeing is, what makes it so innovative.
The threshold heart rates vary from day to day, depending on muscle and body fatigue, illness etc.

You can just use the ZS screen on your watch during training, to make sure you stay in the green area, if this is your goal.

[thanasis]

@Egika said in Suunto ZoneSense:

@Stefano-M64 the use of HR to define a threshold for aerobic/anaerobic/VO2max regions is not a fixed one that is valid over many weeks. It is not even valid for multiple days.
This is why lactate tests on a treadmill or cycle are valid for the time of testing only.

ZoneSense gives you a live (or after activity) information about your body status.
What you are seeing is, what makes it so innovative.
The threshold heart rates vary from day to day, depending on muscle and body fatigue, illness etc.

You can just use the ZS screen on your watch during training, to make sure you stay in the green area, if this is your goal.

i also want to rely on zonesense but i really struggle to understand how is it possible when going uphill , with over 170Bpm for some minutes the app to be showing i am in the green zone… In principle i am excited about relying on hr variability but am i harming myself by relying on it? that’s the big question for me

[Francesco Pagano]

@thanasis from my perspective this question arises not only when going uphill, but when increasing the intensity in general.
When I started using ZS I mostly did easy runs same as I did before, around my theoretical AeT. After months, I realised that ZS was confirming my assumptions simply because my RR intervals are more varied above that threshold; but if I do a hilly run or long tempo intervals, then ZS shows my AeT at a higher HR intensity, and that’s likely because of changing the context where those variations occur. If you read how DFA alpha1 and DDFA work this limitation seems to make sense.

[borgelkranz]

A short question:

I know from experience that zonesense improves when used often in one type of activity, e.g., indoor rowing. I read that it’s a good idea to do at least three light aerobic trainings to improve later readings (calibration).

What I want to know is: does this translate to other activities of the same activity family? Say from running on treadmill to running on track? The activity types are color coded after all.

[raven]

@borgelkranz My guess is “no” but dont know for sure. I’ll note that “indoor rowing” is red while “rowing” is blue which annoys me. Red is apparently the “indoor workout” color, but “indoor cycling” is orange and matches other outdoor cycling.

[Stefano M64]

@GiPFELKiND said in Suunto ZoneSense:

@Stefano-M64 i never would use zone sense as training indication or as reason to train harder as you feel.

Thanks, it’s comforting to know that I’m not alone with my doubts

@Egika said in Suunto ZoneSense:

@Stefano-M64 the use of HR to define a threshold for aerobic/anaerobic/VO2max regions is not a fixed one that is valid over many weeks. It is not even valid for multiple days.
This is why lactate tests on a treadmill or cycle are valid for the time of testing only.

ZoneSense gives you a live (or after activity) information about your body status.

Thanks, ok I understand that. In any case, an (healthy) HRmax must exists for any person, which progressively decline with the age, varying from person to person. According to that, should also exists an aerobic threshold max, and an anaerobic threshold max. When a person is perfectly healthy and fit, the actual values are close to that max values, otherwise they are lower. Then, I do expect that by performing an high number of the same activity ZoneSense should at the end define a personal range of both aerobic and anaerobic thresholds, both lying below the one’s max thresholds values. With training the performances increases, but not indefinitely, everybody has it’s own limits.

[6iovanni]

@thanasis said in Suunto ZoneSense:

how is it possible when going uphill , with over 170Bpm for some minutes the app to be showing i am in the green zone

ZS is not only based on HR and also depends on how your current and past baseline is. Have you trained enough in the past in the aerobic zone? Did you give ZS time to stabilize at the beginning of the session?

In the first few minutes ZS calculates the initial baseline (which remains constant throughout the session) and then applies a correction at later times.
Now you have seen 170 bpm in the green zone and it might be strange, but it is perfectly legitimate. Suppose at the beginning of the session you are tired, for example due to accumulated fatigue, stress, etc. This means a low HRV value. This low HRV value determines the initial baseline! Then the ZS begins to determine the correction to be applied to this initial value during training.

e.g.
A (you in good shape, so good HRV): starting baseline 0.90
B (you in bad shape, so low HRV): starting baseline 0.70

suppose during session your values decrease of the same amount for both A and B with the following values:

at 5’ you have 0.9 at 130bpm
at 10’ you have 0.8 at 140bpm
at 15’ you have 0.5 at 170bpm
at 20’ you have 0.2 at 180bpm

so the corrections are:

at 5’ A) 0.9 - 0.9 = 0 B) 0.8 - 0.7 = 0.1
at 10’ A) 0.8 - 0.9 = -0.1 B) 0.8 - 0.7 = 0
at 15’ A) 0.5 - 0.9 = -0.4 B) 0.5 - 0.7 = - 0.2
at 20’ A) 0.2 - 0.9 = -0.7 B) 0.2 -0.7 = -0.5

green, yellow and red are then determined when:

green, when correction is >= -0.3
yellow, when -0.3 > correction >= -0.6
red, when correction < -0.6

so

at 5’ A and B are in green
at 10’ A and B are still in green
at 15’ A in yellow, B still in green !!
at 10’ A in red, B in yellow

So a low initial value makes ZS less sensitive to changes

[thanasis]

@6iovanni said in Suunto ZoneSense:

@thanasis said in Suunto ZoneSense:

how is it possible when going uphill , with over 170Bpm for some minutes the app to be showing i am in the green zone

ZS is not only based on HR and also depends on how your current and past baseline is. Have you trained enough in the past in the aerobic zone? Did you give ZS time to stabilize at the beginning of the session?

warmed up etc in aerobic yes. then after a point i went uphill .

However those questions indicate that there may be an inherent assumption about zonesense that it should be not considered as a reliable indicator outside some very clear and set preconditions. Unfortunately the app doesn’t tell you if those are met (e.g. can it measure my current load? is my HRV too noisy? am i going uphill but the data are not proper etc…) and it still gives you an indication.

If this hypothesis stands true, I (as an amateur, non scientifically trained user) cannot really make use of it.

However, in my cases , i do try to follow this very easy warmup phase and flat surfaces and then gradually step up

[Stefano M64]

@6iovanni said in Suunto ZoneSense:

also depends on how your current and past baseline is

if SZ gives you a live information about your (actual) body status, as Egika said, and believe that is like that, then it shouldn’t depend upon past data.

[6iovanni]

@Stefano-M64 imho the baseline starting point for each new session depends on the previous ones, and its value changes according to the efforts of the latter. So, again in my opinion, a mix of easy and difficult sessions is the best way to make DDFA work effectively.

[cosme.costa]

@thanasis said in Suunto ZoneSense:

i also want to rely on zonesense but i really struggle to understand how is it possible when going uphill , with over 170Bpm for some minutes the app to be showing i am in the green zone… In principle i am excited about relying on hr variability but am i harming myself by relying on it? that’s the big question for me

This is normal, because metabolically you are still in green. You do not enter/exit one zone only for changing a few HR beats. As you observe that at 170 bpm you do not go red immediately you will also observe that if you are red at the top of the hill, when you start to go down and your bpm are going down you are still in red for some time, because you are still not recovered metabolically. When you are going uphill, instead of reducing your pace try to keep the pace and continue pushing you will see that you will enter in red rapidly, or start the uphill at higher pace.

In my opinion, since the release of ZS, amateur runners we should do a lab test/medical check to see if your heart is healthy and there are no issues with it and then you can trust ZS for you training. Of course you have to use it correctly, do the warm up, do the first sessions slowly and use a good chest strap.

In order to use it properly, we should unlearn some things.

@thanasis said in Suunto ZoneSense:

If this hypothesis stands true, I (as an amateur, non scientifically trained user) cannot really make use of it.

On the contrary, you can use it more. The zones that it indicates are the real ones for that exercise/day and you do not need any expensive lab test.

In my opinion, as ZS is now, ZS is pretty good and solid but Suunto should do a next step integrating ZS in the watch firmware and let you decide to work with the 5 zones or the 3 ZS zones.

In my case, I use ZS from time to time because chest straps wound my chest if I use them continuously. So when I have a session that I want to be strict with the zones I use ZS and the days that I do not care I use an OHR armband.

[James Eastwood]

@cosme.costa yep, also the audio queues.

Doing a long run and trying to stay in green zone is a pain when you have to keep lifting your wrist.

[Brad_Olwin]

@cosme.costa Well said! And, I have been asking since before ZS release to bake into the outer ring. So have other testers……we will see.