Suunto ZoneSense
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@stromdiddily said in Suunto ZoneSense:
@mlakis said in Suunto ZoneSense:
@stromdiddily graph please
I don’t understand your graphs requirement to validate pacing guidance DURING the effort. Post workout, my ZS aerobic hr was 135. That’s ten beats lower than my entered zone 2 primarily because it was hot as heck and I was at elevation.
If I would have followed the heart rate zone, more than likely I’m blowing up because I’m working way harder on that specific day than I was when I set my zones originally.
It was a 26.5 hour activity. My graph isn’t going to help you.
Thanks! This is exactly my point. Others here are trying to force a relationship where one does not exist. There are a lot of data demonstrating why HR, Pace and Power are poor determinants to use while assessing trail running effort especially during ultras!
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@mlakis These perceptions are incorrect! For trail running and ultras pace, power and HR are either poor measures of effort or absolutely unhelpful. For example, after 6h, 15h or 20h of an ultra HR is useless as you are dramatically increasing fatigue! Power is useless as sand,. Roots and rocks are not assessed by power, neither is the cost of eccentric contractions running downhill. Similarly, pace is useless as well. That is why most trail and ultra runners use RPE. Now we have ZS and I think a game changer as I can prevent myself from going too fast at the beginning and too hard uphill.
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@Josaiplu I am using a Suunto smart sensor belt. it is comfortable as the sensor is small.
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@Brad_Olwin, I am talking about cycling power using a power meter which is spot on, not running power which is a poor derived estimated metric by the watches.
So, we have arrived to the conclusion that ZS is useful for trail running efforts equal on over 6 hours.
That’s a progression to initial statements of where ZS is useful/meaningful.
Thanks.
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@Brad_Olwin it’s maybe a little bit too early but did you test zs when backcountry skiing? Looking forward to do it because especially on the way up it could help me to adjust my effort
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@far-blue said in Suunto ZoneSense:
@dulko79 Anyone know if it will automatically update on the next watch SuuntoPlus sync? Or do you need to remove and re-add it?
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@Mff73 Thanks for the link. I missed the original explanation post.
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@mlakis here’s a lot of graphs with explanation:
https://www.suunto.com/sports/News-Articles-container-page/introducing-zonesense-revolutionizing-intensity-insights-with-heart-stress-measurement/And you might watch the lecture that has a nice marathon example with graph: https://youtu.be/bD3O4BZ9vIc?si=KkS3NTd2Lp7eS1Qt
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For me Zonesense doesn’t work at all. Had the third run today with first warmup, then about 30 minutes all out, then pushing up a hill until maximum Heartrate - then cooldown.
HR Zones where about 50% red in this run
I can’t see how this values can be of any use -
@VoiGAS what is your setup? (Vertical + Suunto belt here and work surprisingly well)
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@mlakis there are great examples with cycling explained in the Suunto video. Have you watched it?
https://youtu.be/bD3O4BZ9vIc?si=wmJ2zJUIXQlp--NF -
@VoiGAS The warmup is not long enough for ZS and what are you looking for? What do you mean not working? What did the watch show? Your HR in the graph changes quite a bit and is not a steady value. An all out effort should ramp up HR then when done decline. The hill is much higher HR so prior to that cannot be all out.
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@VoiGAS
I’ve been following this thread because my experience (for running) is the same as you: the ZoneSense output is not useful or credible as a measure of intensity for me. To rely on it I would have to ignore the frequent contradiction with other data showing what I’m doing (speed, gradient etc), how I feel (RPE) and how my CV system is responding (HR).I’ve read the Suunto article and watched the video. I can’t see any examples - for running - where pace and/or HR wouldn’t have been as good or better than ddfa, based on the data in the charts. I expected to see use cases where ZoneSense gives actionable insights that HR, pace or other established metrics do not. Maybe I’ve missed them or misunderstood the data presented?
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@iterumtenta I have a Race S plus Suunto belt
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@MKPotts Running trails, HR, Pace and Power do not provide actionable information on effort. HR on downhills if technical cannot run fast enough to use. Power is useless in sand, lots of rocks and roots as well as steep downhills power is low but effort is high. Pace is not helpful either, on steep uphills very slow and on technical downhills hard to go fast if a pace target is set.
ZS on uphills I use to keep my effort in check. Surprisingly on downhills I see anaerobic efforts where I know I am working but thought I was aerobic. As I stated before, much better than any of the other metrics for me on trails and I think on long runs or ultras later in the run will help me gauge effort better. -
@Brad_Olwin I had about half an hour in the upper treshold zone and then pushed to my maximum heart rate. Warmup was also running up the hill, so quite high.
My expectation was to at least reach the red zone in Zonesense. If such a workout doesn’t make it, then I have no idea how I ever can reach Zonesense VO2MAX -
@VoiGAS Zonesense needs about 20 min of aerobic to get a good baseline. For me it starts in about 15 min after I start running. Did you reach the red zone on the watch? I have several times but the time in VO2M has been short enough it does not show on the graph.
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@Brad_Olwin Thank you for the hint - I will try a longer warmup. At least Suunto App and Watch were consistent after the latest update. Thats good and I also like the fact Suunto is bringing something innovative here. I just don’t know how I can make it work yet…
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@Brad_Olwin said in Suunto ZoneSense:
Zonesense needs about 20 min of aerobic to get a good baseline.
If this is true (not saying it isn’t), then Suunto shouldn’t make the ZS data available in the app afterwards for activities that don’t meet this requirement. If, as the ZS defenders are saying, ZS is best for long endurance efforts, why even make the graph information available for other activities? It’s clearly causing a lot of confusion.
@VoiGAS said in Suunto ZoneSense:
Thats good and I also like the fact Suunto is bringing something innovative here. I just don’t know how I can make it work yet…
I think this is how most users feel at the moment. Seems Suunto has gone against their “simple is best” principle and put forth a metric that is either difficult for the average user to understand or perhaps just doesn’t work as intended. I’m currently leaning toward the latter as I’ve yet to receive relevant, actionable info from ZS during any of my activities.
@mlakis said in Suunto ZoneSense:
I want a graph of ZS/HR and an explanation of how ZS helped you better than HR to pace your effort
I don’t see any harm in asking for graphs from folks claiming it has helped them during an activity. Again, why give us the graphs in SA if we can’t analyze them after the fact? I believe @mlakis would like an example graph (HR and ZS) where the HR zone and ZS zones differ, but the ZS zone more closely matches how the user felt at that moment. Shouldn’t be too hard to produce.
Currently, we only have user examples where ZS makes no sense. And pointing to the Suunto produced examples doesn’t help as these have obviously been selected to support the theory behind ZS.
As a final thought, I’ll echo a sentiment I’ve read a few times above: ZoneSense feels very, very beta at this point. Suunto has some serious work to do if they want to make it beneficial to the average user.
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To test, understand and try to get the most out of ZS for my training, I have ZS as main display on the Vertical during an activity.
The options in the middle to choose are enough and it would be a great feature if the three choosen options could be shown in a rotation every 5 seconds or so. So I would have all data on the ZS display without to press a button.
Or the outer ring of the ZS display with the three zones could be choosen on the other displays of the activity. Instead of the heart rate.