Suunto ZoneSense

Brad_Olwin

@Brad_Olwin, no graphs yet.

I want a graph of ZS/HR and an explanation of how ZS helped you better than HR to pace your effort, in respect also to how many times the ZS was showing nonsense and instead of helping you it was misleading you.

That’s what we are examining, what metric helps you better to pace you efforts.

So, graph please.

So, graphs are NOT helping me pace, looking at HR won’t matter because I do not gauge effort by HR. I keep trying to make this point ! I am solely basing effort on RPE when not using Zone Sense and now I am using ZS for pacing. My HR is irrelevant. I have now explained several times how ZS is helping me pace and I do not use HR so an HR graph will not help you to understand how I use ZS for managing my effort.

Brad_Olwin

@ChrisA exactly the point I am trying to make! Thanks!

Brad_Olwin

@stromdiddily said in Suunto ZoneSense:

@mlakis said in Suunto ZoneSense:

@stromdiddily graph please

I don’t understand your graphs requirement to validate pacing guidance DURING the effort. Post workout, my ZS aerobic hr was 135. That’s ten beats lower than my entered zone 2 primarily because it was hot as heck and I was at elevation.

If I would have followed the heart rate zone, more than likely I’m blowing up because I’m working way harder on that specific day than I was when I set my zones originally.

It was a 26.5 hour activity. My graph isn’t going to help you.

Thanks! This is exactly my point. Others here are trying to force a relationship where one does not exist. There are a lot of data demonstrating why HR, Pace and Power are poor determinants to use while assessing trail running effort especially during ultras!

Brad_Olwin

@mlakis These perceptions are incorrect! For trail running and ultras pace, power and HR are either poor measures of effort or absolutely unhelpful. For example, after 6h, 15h or 20h of an ultra HR is useless as you are dramatically increasing fatigue! Power is useless as sand,. Roots and rocks are not assessed by power, neither is the cost of eccentric contractions running downhill. Similarly, pace is useless as well. That is why most trail and ultra runners use RPE. Now we have ZS and I think a game changer as I can prevent myself from going too fast at the beginning and too hard uphill.

Brad_Olwin

@Josaiplu I am using a Suunto smart sensor belt. it is comfortable as the sensor is small.

mlakis

@Brad_Olwin, I am talking about cycling power using a power meter which is spot on, not running power which is a poor derived estimated metric by the watches.

So, we have arrived to the conclusion that ZS is useful for trail running efforts equal on over 6 hours.

That’s a progression to initial statements of where ZS is useful/meaningful.

Thanks.

Stefan Kersting

@Brad_Olwin it’s maybe a little bit too early but did you test zs when backcountry skiing? Looking forward to do it because especially on the way up it could help me to adjust my effort

Mff73

@far-blue said in Suunto ZoneSense:

@dulko79 Anyone know if it will automatically update on the next watch SuuntoPlus sync? Or do you need to remove and re-add it?

https://forum.suunto.com/post/155821

dulko79

@Mff73 Thanks for the link. I missed the original explanation post.

Egika

@mlakis here’s a lot of graphs with explanation:
https://www.suunto.com/sports/News-Articles-container-page/introducing-zonesense-revolutionizing-intensity-insights-with-heart-stress-measurement/

And you might watch the lecture that has a nice marathon example with graph: https://youtu.be/bD3O4BZ9vIc?si=KkS3NTd2Lp7eS1Qt

VoiGAS

For me Zonesense doesn’t work at all. Had the third run today with first warmup, then about 30 minutes all out, then pushing up a hill until maximum Heartrate - then cooldown.

HR Zones where about 50% red in this run
I can’t see how this values can be of any use

iterumtenta

@VoiGAS what is your setup? (Vertical + Suunto belt here and work surprisingly well)

Brad_Olwin

@mlakis there are great examples with cycling explained in the Suunto video. Have you watched it?
https://youtu.be/bD3O4BZ9vIc?si=wmJ2zJUIXQlp--NF

Brad_Olwin

@VoiGAS The warmup is not long enough for ZS and what are you looking for? What do you mean not working? What did the watch show? Your HR in the graph changes quite a bit and is not a steady value. An all out effort should ramp up HR then when done decline. The hill is much higher HR so prior to that cannot be all out.

MKPotts

@VoiGAS
I’ve been following this thread because my experience (for running) is the same as you: the ZoneSense output is not useful or credible as a measure of intensity for me. To rely on it I would have to ignore the frequent contradiction with other data showing what I’m doing (speed, gradient etc), how I feel (RPE) and how my CV system is responding (HR).

I’ve read the Suunto article and watched the video. I can’t see any examples - for running - where pace and/or HR wouldn’t have been as good or better than ddfa, based on the data in the charts. I expected to see use cases where ZoneSense gives actionable insights that HR, pace or other established metrics do not. Maybe I’ve missed them or misunderstood the data presented?

VoiGAS

@iterumtenta I have a Race S plus Suunto belt

Brad_Olwin

@MKPotts Running trails, HR, Pace and Power do not provide actionable information on effort. HR on downhills if technical cannot run fast enough to use. Power is useless in sand, lots of rocks and roots as well as steep downhills power is low but effort is high. Pace is not helpful either, on steep uphills very slow and on technical downhills hard to go fast if a pace target is set.
ZS on uphills I use to keep my effort in check. Surprisingly on downhills I see anaerobic efforts where I know I am working but thought I was aerobic. As I stated before, much better than any of the other metrics for me on trails and I think on long runs or ultras later in the run will help me gauge effort better.

VoiGAS

@Brad_Olwin I had about half an hour in the upper treshold zone and then pushed to my maximum heart rate. Warmup was also running up the hill, so quite high.
My expectation was to at least reach the red zone in Zonesense. If such a workout doesn’t make it, then I have no idea how I ever can reach Zonesense VO2MAX

Brad_Olwin

@VoiGAS Zonesense needs about 20 min of aerobic to get a good baseline. For me it starts in about 15 min after I start running. Did you reach the red zone on the watch? I have several times but the time in VO2M has been short enough it does not show on the graph.

Istvan71

Több, mint 10 edzést végeztem már ZoneSense-vel. Előtte elolvastam mindent a témában, amit találtam, azt hiszem értem mit jelent. Elfogadom hogy a metabolikus küszöbeim napról-napra és akár egy hosszabb edzés vagy verseny alatt is változhatnak. A Suunto azt mondja, hogy a ZoneSense használatával tevékenység közben valós időben láthatjuk, hogy a küszöbökhöz képest a pillanatnyi erőfeszítésünk hol helyezkedik el. Edzés után, ha átléptük valamelyik küszöböt, az applikációban láthatjuk a mai napon mért küszöb értékeket. Ez nagyszerű dolog lenne, de a valóságban az alkalmazás nagyon rosszul működik. Például a mai kerékpár edzésen 3x10 perc anaerob küszöb (LT2) alatti intervallumot, 10 perc könnyű pedálozást és végül 40 perc LT1 alatti (küszöbhöz közeli) szakaszt szerettem volna végezni. Ehhez jó segítség lenne a ZoneSense valós időben mutatott adata. Az első 3 darab 10 perces szakasznál jól működött. Az inetrvallumok második-harmadik percétől kezdve elérte a vörös zónát (LT2 felett) és abban is maradt. A terv a sárga zóna legteteje lett volna, az én hibám, hogy a vörösben tartottam. A probléma a 40 perc aerob zónában tervezett szakasszal volt. Egyenletes 130-135 bpm között tartottam a pulzust. Az órán (Vertical) a ZoneSense felváltva a zöld a sárga és a vörös zónát mutatta, de legtöbbet a sárgát. Ez meglepő, mert érzésre és a beállított zónáim szerint is (pulzus és teljesítmény) LT1 alatt voltam. Edzés után az alkalmazás szerint a ZoneSense az aerob küszöböt 147, az anaerob küszöböt 154 értékre mérte. Ha 147 az aerob küszöböm a mai napon, akkor miért mutatott menet közben állandó 130-135 bpm-nél sárgát? Melyik a helyes? Ha az utólag számított 147 a helyes, akkor azzal semmit sem érek, mert menet közben helytelenül mutat az óra, nem azt az edzést csináltam, amit szerettem volna. És a holnapi hosszú aerob edzést sem tervezhetem a 147 alapján, mert ez változhat napról-napra, mért már 138-at is pár napja. És így holnap sem azt az edzést fogom csinálni, amit szeretnék. De ezt csak utólag fogom megtudni. Azt nem értem, ha az óra menet közben észleli a küszöböt, miért nem mutatja meg egy konkrét számmal. Ahhoz lehetne viszonyítani. A ZoneSense skála 1-3 perc késéssel jelzi a változásokat, és a tapasztalataim alapján helytelenül. A felhasználó csak azt látja az órán edzés közben, hogy valamikor átlépte a küszöböt, de nem tudja, hogy 1 perccel ezelőtt vagy 2 percel ezelőtt, és mi volt az az érték amit átlépett. Az elmélet nagyon jó és hasznos is lehetne minden felhasználó számára, ha jól működne. Jelenlegi állapotában viszont csak egy nagyon félrevezető adat, semmi több.