Improving navigation further after 2.35 update

[The_77]

Just yanking this out of the firmware thread so it’s easier to comment on/share ideas, as that thread is so busy. Will leave the header blank ish. Main changes: Climb Guidance update and the tooth update for the map

[The_77]

Firstly, the refresh rate of data in climb segments is a little slow, the metres climbed/descended and those to go don’t refresh at equal speeds, a bit jarring.

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Secondly, the support page shows coloured graphs for the whole elevation profile, which aren’t there in reality. Guess that’s coming.

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As for turn by turn notifications, I had two thoughts whilst out, which I think are reasonably elegant solutions, one definitely possible and one maybe less so.

So currently we have on the map screen the tooth with the distance to waypoint/turn. I know that it’s possible to have scrolling data fields from multiple S+ apps, so my thought was, in the last xm (Suunto decision) to have it scroll between distance to go and what is coming up - a little arrow with the direction to go at the turn, or the name, or the symbol if it’s waypoint symbol. Then, at the turn/waypoint it defaults to only the direction/symbol for 5s, and then goes back to distance to the next waypoint.

That’s the easy bit. My further proposal, to stop full screen notifications for turns/waypoints coming up, is to use the tooth and the UI we have effectively. Every screen you set up currently has the tooth at the bottom (except S+ apps and the elevation graph). My proposal would be to override the information in the tooth for xm (100m or so) before the turn in the same way as previously described, have that behaviour as above and then return after the set waypoint/turn to normal. So what normally might be pace, changes to the direction distance to turn, and then back again.

This approach would prevent need for switching to nav screen purely for turns, and would only apply on routes - and might be impossible to implement. An idea though.

[wurzlsepp]

@The_77 i really like that idea! That together with improved notufication timing Although i think (hope) some of this is still being worked on, so maybe a bit too early to discuss

One problem might be readability, for people with “weaker” eyes, since it would have to fit a rather small area. There is already some complaints now for data fields font size and this might become more of an issue then. Maybe have both, full-screen and small notification in parallel, and decide which one to use depending on the age set by the user?

[Josaiplu]

Nice idea to create this thread and fully in line with the suggestion, I try tbt this morning and indeed timing is not good in my opinion.

Does the idea of showing the round gauge of intensity zone around the map was already suggested ? It will not alter the visibility of the map and will allow to show hr/pace/power zone while navigating

[Mff73]

What about using the outer ring with directionnal arrows pointing to next turn(s) to come?
Like the compass arrow, but, for example, a green one to show next turn direction and a blue one for the one after.
Next turn would stay a few seconds/meters after turn is done to avoid missing this information during the choice to turn, and then switch to next couple of turns.
Surely not perfect, but maybe a way to use space

[The_77]

@Mff73 I think something the notifications really struggle with is clustered turns very close to each other - so something to improve that too would be good use of an outer ring potentially as @Josaiplu says (although for more alternative information also a good shout).

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Also separate note the new distance to go and bits on the climb page are just about ok for me to see, but can imagine it’s tricky at a glance on the smaller Race S & 9PP, has to be readable as you say @wurzlsepp.

[Mff73]

@The_77
Yep.
But, at some point, when too much notifications are too close,maybe worth thinking about the fact that, then, notifications are useless. It won’t be quick enough to inform you efficiently.
Looking at the map itself, zoomed enough, is the only solution (to me).
Notif are good, when you are enjoying the path, and not concentrated only on the navigation itself, and remind you that you have to focus on a next turn to come.

[The_77]

@Mff73 100%, when they’re 20m apart at the moment you don’t even get a chance to see the map in-between all the pop-ups blocking the screen, which is totally unusable currently.

[Brad_Olwin]

@The_77 I think a great idea. @Josaiplu this has been suggested by some testers. I think the reluctance is with smaller watches (Race S) it uses too much of the screen. Some like only maps to be there.

[Prenj]

Today while mountain biking I had few off route full screen notifications that wouldn’t go away unless I clicked the digital crown. If I’m not wrong that was not like that before?

Also watch got confused when crossing the road I passed earlier during the activity and reversed the route and tried to navigate back to the beginning of the route. Strange behavior…

[Josaiplu]

@Brad_Olwin thanks, understood I was thinking of this when I run this morning, maybe hiding the crown when you zoom could mitigate it on little screen but I feel like you don’t loose that much visibility
Anyway glad to hear that it was suggested

[surfboomerang]

@Mff73 said in Improving navigation further after 2.35 update:

But, at some point, when too much notifications are too close,maybe worth thinking about the fact that, then, notifications are useless.

This is exactly why I almost never use the TbT feature. It is a great feature and I certainly want to use it more, but If I get notification after notification and can’t even see the map in between because a lot of direction changes happen within a short distance, the feature becomes confusing.

[duffman19]

Thanks @The_77 for opening this topic. Should we maybe have a separate thread for Climb Guidance? I’ll split my comments about the two topics.

I’ve been harping about the timing of the turn notifications since I started using them. Although, I read somewhere in here that Suunto is actively addressing the issue, so our ideas may be moot.

On a large scale, I think the Suunto navigation is excellent, especially for trail running. The highlight is the simplicity and directness of the interface. Honestly, I don’t use TBT often as the map screen works excellently on its own. The only issue is having to scroll to that map screen, which has been made easier with the ability to scroll backwards. So the TBT notifications are a nice reminder when not on the map screen.

To keep things simple (and Suunto-like), it may be best to do away with the second TBT notification all together (the one that shows the next turn at the current turn). So just one notification at ~30m from the turn, but maybe have it stay up for 10 seconds instead of the current 5 (it can always be dismissed by the “x”).

Another option is to have the full map screen pop up when approaching a turn instead of the TBT direction, and then return to whatever screen you were on after passing the turn. If you are using navigation, this is when you need to see the map anyways, so why not have it happen automatically?

Everyone’s ideas here are great and would be an improvement. I’m hopeful Suunto will come up with a solution that’s simple and effective… it just might take some patience from us users (which we’ve all probably developed at this point!).

[duffman19]

As for Climb Guidance (can we call it CG?), when it works, it seems to work well. But several times in the past few days of use, it has simply failed to either register a climb/uphill or inverted an uphill for a downhill or vice versa. Here’s an example from today’s run:

First, the overall elevation view after beginning the biggest climb of the route:

Here’s the zoomed in view, registering as a flat blue section (clearly doesn’t look like it):

Here’s the profile from SA where it’s clearly labelled an uphill section:

And, for good measure, the ClimbPro screen running on my 955 at the same time:

So what happened? It’s correctly marked in SA, so why did it disappear on the watch? There are clearly some holes in the system that need to be patched.

The other issue I’m seeing is with the ascent/descent calculations for the sections. They seem to be anywhere from 20-30% shy of reality. I’m sure this has more to do with the background elevation data used in SA. For my region, at least, it is quite far off. Or perhaps not as “granular” as the data I see from others like Garmin.

[lateralus]

@duffman19 said in Improving navigation further after 2.35 update:

As for Climb Guidance (can we call it CG?), when it works, it seems to work well. But several times in the past few days of use, it has simply failed to either register a climb/uphill or inverted an uphill for a downhill or vice versa. Here’s an example from today’s run:

[kriskus]

@duffman19 It indeed depends on the underlying data. And you will only get notifications about the Climb sections, not Uphills. From the profile it looks like there are no Climbs at all on your route.

[duffman19]

@kriskus I was not referring to notifications, which, yes, are only triggered by climbs and descents. Any and all types of sections are displayed when you zoom in on the elevation graph. So for most of the other uphill sections on my run, the watch correctly displayed the uphill graphics labelled in orange with the remaining ascent value. For some reason, it completely missed the largest climb (as I tried to show above), instead labelling it a flat section in light blue.

[kriskus]

@duffman19 OK, got it. Strange then…

[Ecki D.]

Don’t know if this fits in here. I rather often get lost on trails when using turn by turn navigation and there are e.g. 4 trails going off and the watch say just in x meters / feet - right but I had to take the second one.
I have a PP9, so no map to look at.
Planing is done with Komoot, cause when using the Suunto app I was getting a massive number of trurns that didn’t even exist.

I don’t know if this is possible somehow, because it is just only some gpx data, to say right in x meters / feet but show on the watch that there are still 2or 3 other trails.

Another great feature for turn by turn would be text to speech like it happens wiht heartrates, time and so on. I often have my headsets on when using komoot or even google for navigation, this works faster for me than looking on the watch.

An one last but I guess it won’t come - maps for the 9pp

[The_77]

@Ecki-D the only subtlety here is the “sharp/slight” left/right that exists at such trail heads, or left/right fork. It does exist at road roundabouts where exits are specified but not in the same vein for trails.

Also this has been requested before with an elegant sketch of how it looks but I can’t remember from who or when.