Suunto 7 Successor

olymay

@cosme-costa said in Suunto 7 Successor:

@olymay As I said my question was not with bad intention, and this training coach looks like a good feature.

Suunto has an adaptive training guidance built in the Suunto 3.

If the same thing were available in the S7 I would be a VERY happy boy

Egika

@olymay Some ideas regading your situation:
For those longer runs you are planning, a dedicated sports watch seems to make sense for you. Like the S9P with it’s state of the art wrist HR sensor and light weight.
Regarding training plans: Have you looked at training peaks and all those free plans you can find there?
Now we just need a way to get the TP plans into our watches…

olymay

@egika Thanks, I really appreciate it

I agree, to get the most out of my longer runs a proper sports watch makes a lot of sense. This is one of the main reasons that I am looking to upgrade the S7 so something more advanced.

I have looked at Training Peaks and it seems to give me most of what I want, for a price. And that price is quite a lot. I don’t mind that if it is worth it, or offers something I can’t get for free. But the Garmin coach is free, as is the adaptive training on the S3. And I would rather not have to use a third party if I can avoid it, purely for simplicity.
But also, TP does not integrate with my S7 at all (it does receive my training data, but will not load anything to the watch regarding a plan etc).

I have looked at the S9P and really love the look of it. It’s also very expensive and for the same money I can get a Fenix 6 Pro with change to spare. It looks to me that the Fenix has better body battery and better sleep tracking, plus has the free coach built in, and links to more services should I want to.
As much as I love the S9P, it seems to lose out to the Fenix in most areas

In an ideal world I want a Suunto 7 that can do most of what the S9P and F6 can do, with proper body battery / resources and detailed sleep tracking with external sensor support and built in coach / training plan.
I realise I’m essentially asking for a unicorn watch (as in one that does not and will never exist) but if I can find the perfect product for me then I am willing to spend the cash to get it.

I guess the next few weeks will be interesting, as I am expecting Garmin to announce the Fenix 7 and Epix 2, and Suunto to announce something (probably S5Peak?)…?

Egika

@olymay I can fully understand and like your attitude
I am also motivated to excercise by new gadgets
Good thing is there will always be new products coming - while I understand that Suunto is a little more focussing on sustainability.

cosme.costa

@olymay Don’t rush, for what I have read in the forum and other places I think/hope Suunto will bring some nice update, I’ve read in some web pages that we will even have structured workouts in 2022. So maybe Suunto releases something sw, hw or both that suits you.

Don’t rush also for your goal, here my two cents: 50 km is not something trivial, and I guess that this ultramarathon takes place in trails and with some ascent, am I right? Anyway, for this distance you need to feel comfortable running around 25/30 km regularly (once a week or every 10 days at comfortable pace, controlling food and water) before you go for the next step. When you achieve that then you need to think of a more structured training, and its here when maybe you need some new gadget, IMHO.
You have said, and I saw in SA, that your last run were 6 km but you felt empty at the end, so build up your shape from here. I mean this week run 6/7 km until you are comfortable, next week try to arrive to 10 km until you are comfortable, then 15 km once per week, then 20 km once per week/10 days and 10 km during week days and so on. Eat very healthy, sometimes changes in the diet don’t pay off until some weeks have passed, learn to eat/drink while running, in a 50 km race this is basic. Rest 2 days a week non consecutives… Do recovery runs, and build up your aerobic range, I mean add km but only force yourself once or two a week.

Probably you can also find tones of trainings for this distance but I’m pretty against them, specific trainings for a single event tend to prepare you well for the event but then your recovery is really long, I’m more in favour of build up a good base and then adapt of what you want to do.

Km to the legs!!

Nigel Taylor 0

@olymay said in Suunto 7 Successor:

I guess the next few weeks will be interesting, as I am expecting Garmin to announce the Fenix 7 and Epix 2, and Suunto to announce something (probably S5Peak?)…?

The sale of Suunto to Liesheng (who have the Haylou brand) might be a bit of a complicating factor with regards to future Suunto watches?

https://www.suunto.com/en-gb/News/new-ownership-broadens-suuntos-shoulders-in-developing-fit-for-purpose-outdoor-products/

Maybe add Suunto activity tracking (and mapping) smarts to something like their RS3 >> https://haylou.info/rs3.html
…and you’ve got a future S7 fork that moves away from Wear OS (which is going to be difficult to compete against Samsung and a future Pixel) - and with that brings along improved battery life.

Jamie BG

@olymay
Also look at FR745 / FR945 / Enduro. Note that new F7 / Epix 2 (F7 with AMOLED - not sure if it loses anything or gains any extra features) are expected to be announced this month (maybe as early as the 17th/18th). No idea yet, other than stamina, whether any new additional features or improvements - so may also be a good time to pick up a second hand as people exchange for a F7.

I went from S7 to F6xPs and have pretty much found everything you point out to be very true, and helped me get from couch to 5k using one of training plans. But have also used other built in plans for strength training, cardio and even a little bit of Yoga - broadening what I do.
Am also seriously getting tempted by what these watches can do with indoor cycles that work in conjunction with the watch - which would be a nice change around for when the weather is bad.

olymay

@cosme-costa I’m happy to wait, but not forever. If new features or devices are coming then at least a rough indication of this and a timescale would be nice. Otherwise customers may think nothing is coming and buy something different. For example, if I knew for certain that a new S7 was coming in Q1/Q2 2022 then I would probably wait to see what it is like (and probably buy it). But not knowing makes me think nothing is coming and I start to look elsewhere.

Mega, thanks for the tips. It aligns roughly with how I was already thinking and it’s really great to know I wasn’t far off the mark.

There is a 50km trail race in December and that is my target. I prefer trails and despise running on tarmac.

Last year I was doing >20km and not completely dying at the end, so I know I can get to that distance again. I then just need to double it
My thoughts were to do another couple of weeks of 5-6 km runs, to build up some base stamina and then start to slowly build up the distance a little each week.
Previously, my schedule was a short (7-10km) run twice a week on weekdays (often tues and thurs) and then a longer run at the weekend. This was mainly governed by working in the week and not having a huge amount of time free to go for a long run.

olymay

@nigel-taylor-0 said in Suunto 7 Successor:

@olymay said in Suunto 7 Successor:

I guess the next few weeks will be interesting, as I am expecting Garmin to announce the Fenix 7 and Epix 2, and Suunto to announce something (probably S5Peak?)…?

The sale of Suunto to Liesheng (who have the Haylou brand) might be a bit of a complicating factor with regards to future Suunto watches?

https://www.suunto.com/en-gb/News/new-ownership-broadens-suuntos-shoulders-in-developing-fit-for-purpose-outdoor-products/

Maybe add Suunto activity tracking (and mapping) smarts to something like their RS3 >> https://haylou.info/rs3.html
…and you’ve got a future S7 fork that moves away from Wear OS (which is going to be difficult to compete against Samsung and a future Pixel) - and with that brings along improved battery life.

Yeah… I’m not sure how I feel about this sale. I’m not positive or negative. But I am, as ever, cautiously optimistic. Who knows what it will bring.

One thing I am confident on though, is there will be change, for better or worse.

olymay

@jamie-bg yeah, they are also some great watches. And if the rumours are true then the FR755 and FR955 will also be announced alongside the F7 and E2.
The same rumours also point towards a Jan 17th date.

The E2 sounds like it will be the same as the F7 but with an AMOLED screen and no solar charging. If it’s not too crazy expensive then this might be the one I look at most, purely because I have become so used to the stunning screen on the S7

If the F6 becomes available for a crazy cheap price then I’ll look at it. But rumours are that the F7 will have better sensors (HR etc), touchscreen (useful for maps), and a bunch of other major upgrades (some useful, some not for me).

I don’t need crazy battery life, as IF I can complete this 50km ultra than it will likely be as far as I go distance wise (mind you, I said that about the half marathon ).

I’m also looking at moving house soon and want to build myself a pain cave / gym area. Part of that is to get a smart bike, a rower, and weights, etc. Having a watch that can track all of that and connect to other bits of tech is going to be crucial, so I am also trying to future proof any purchases.

Brad_Olwin

@olymay I have to agree with @cosme-costa. What you are looking for is not in a watch and no watch will help you achieve a goal to train for a 50km ultra. There are a LOT of training plans developed for marathons and marathons are far, far different than ultras. The training is different and running on trails cannot be equated to interval training on the pavement or running steady state pace on pavement.
Sorry, I don’t often interject my personal beliefs here but you are making a mistake. The S7 is a perfect tool for what you are attempting to achieve. Body battery, resources, etc are NOT going to help you train, this is all just fluff to make you believe your watch is telling you something. The FirstBeat metrics are not adequate for ultras, believe me, I have a lot of experience with those metrics and my performance and how I feel!
You need base aerobic training, at your fitness level doing too much anaerobic efforts will get you nowhere.
I strongly suggest you get a copy of the Uphill Athlete, read the first few chapters and do an Aerobic Threshold Test, followed by an anaerobic test. That will set up the zones you should run in for months, it is unlikely you have a good aerobic base. The only thing you may need is a watch that will accept an HR belt, however, I have found the S7 to have the best OHR of the bunch. You can purchase Training Plans from Uphill Athlete that integrate with Training Peaks. I have looked at what I can see from them and think they are fairly good. That will help you to organize your training.

In Jason Koop’s book he believes that RPE (relative perceived effort) is the most reliable measure, not HR, not Power and frankly I would agree with that as I pay more attention to how I feel than to maintaining a particular Pace/HR.
Training for an ultra if you have no distance training requires not only training your cardiovascular system for endurance (long runs) but your ligaments, joints, etc. You cannot build up your distance quickly, you will get injured and be out. No more than 10% per week and until you have a solid aerobic base (that may take a year or more) you should not participate in hard sustained anaerobic efforts. It won’t help you. Ultra training is not a seasonal thing, it will require a substantial time commitment and effort, consistency is the key! Neither a Garmin nor a Suunto nor Polar nor Coros will get you there. All you need is time and a gauge of your effort! I could do my training without a watch and be fine.

Sorry my 2 cents worth because you are heading down the wrong path.

olymay

@brad_olwin thanks Brad, I really do appreciate the advice
Although I may not be going as wrong as you think (at least I hope not).

My plan is to increase distance at a maximum of 10% per week, most likely less (certainly at the start) and this will be based entirely on how I feel.
I have made the mistake of going too far too soon in the past and ended up either very sore or injured. I learnt the hard way.

I am not just looking at a watch to help me train for an ultra, I want a complete package, something that essentially does it all.
Yes, I will use it for the ultra training, but I also want better insights into my overall health. There is no question that the Garmin Body Battery is better than the Suunto Resources (at least when I compare my S7 to my gf’s Venu, although I appreciate neither are running the latest versions). Sleep tracking is also important to me and the S7 is basic to say the least (although it is very accurate).
The S7 has the best OHR I’ve ever used, but I want the ability to connect a chest HR for times like when the weather is cold and I want to wear sleeves, or ride a bike, or do weights, etc.

I have looked through some of the UA training plans on TP and they look great. Really great. But many of them require running at different pace/HR/etc during activities and without having that live on my wrist I simply won’t be able to follow it. I have tried to do a run based on my HR with the S7 and I spent more time looking at my watch than where I was going (yes, I fell over). It took all of the fun out of the run and I hated it. A device that tells me what I need to do and if I am straying too far from it is essential for me. Whether that be for ultra training or just a general fitness plan.
I could go running without a watch, but I would probably end up stagnating or injured.

I need a plan to keep me on target, but also one that nags me to get out and go and do the right type of run (as i’ve said before, i have a habit of going too far, simply because i love running in the countryside).
A good watch is just a tool to help me achieve the goals I want.
The S7 has helped me enormously since I bought it, but now I am running more seriously with some actual targets I need something that will help me with that.

I really want an S7gen2 to be that watch. I have everything crossed.

suzzlo

Watches don’t run, the only think you need to achieve you goal is to be motivated.

Said that, I have money reserved for my next watch

I run with both Spartan Sport and Garmin 745, and really appreciate different features from them:

design/mobile app/ Stryd integration from Suunto
training plan/structured workouts, some health metrics coming from firstbeat from Garmin

Actually I’m combining with the Humango platform which creates an adaptative training dinamicaly with the 745, and if this could come to Suunto (rumors said that something similar could work with nolio) I will immediately move to new Suunto watch.

As it said, there is no better watch/brand, it’s only about preferences

Enjoy!

@suzzlo said in Suunto 7 Successor:

Watches don’t run

LOL!!!

Jamie BG

@olymay - evelate 4 sensor isn’t that much better than the elevate 3 sensor - slightly better improvement on HIIT, but looks like slightly worse on cycling - still a very new sensor so suspect will improve in time. Main performance boost is on the SPO2 - which is of minimal benefit.

Suggested that F7 will be 2 flavours - touchscreen or solar.

olymay

@jamie-bg said in Suunto 7 Successor:

@olymay - evelate 4 sensor isn’t that much better than the elevate 3 sensor - slightly better improvement on HIIT, but looks like slightly worse on cycling - still a very new sensor so suspect will improve in time. Main performance boost is on the SPO2 - which is of minimal benefit.

Suggested that F7 will be 2 flavours - touchscreen or solar.

Any new hardware will take time to have the software fully optimised, happens with all devices, so I’m sure they will get better and better (once they iron out the inevitable bugs at launch).

The rumours suggest the F7 will be both touchscreen and solar, with there being no Pro option this year (all versions will essentially be the Pro).
I’m not bothered about solar, I won’t be out doing multiday events. But touch for navigating maps is a must (as well as for quickly moving around menus etc, it’s so quick and easy). Having the option to use both during a workout is nice, but buttons win for me.

Ideally I want an upgraded S7, and I am prepared to wait a bit, bit not forever.
This morning I compared the resource and sleep data in my S7 to that in my gf’s Venu. The resource data is essentially useless and tells me nothing, the body battery has so much data regarding recovery, stress, HRV, etc and is genuinely useful. The sleep tracking in the Venu might not be as accurate as the S7, but it is more detailed. I would love that level of detail with the accuracy of the S7.

I am sure Suunto can achieve this level of detail as they clearly have the hardware and the expertise to do it.
If they can package this, along with external sensor support and adaptive training plans into a next gen S7 then I will be all over it.

Is that too much to ask?

Brad_Olwin

@olymay said in Suunto 7 Successor:

the body battery has so much data regarding recovery, stress, HRV, etc and is genuinely useful.

How is this useful? What are you going to do with the data? This is my point, there is already quite a bit of science questioning the value of HRV readings as a predictor. I frankly don’t see how this is useful.

I have a race in 2.5 weeks and workouts that I have planned as well as a short taper. Will those readings matter to me? No! My last two days have been very stressful, we had our first Nationally competitive agility dog become completely paralyzed overnight and had to euthanize him. Is that going to affect my stress? Absolutely, my sleep has not been great and I feel crappy. Will I do my workout? Yes! If I feel great during the workout that is good, if not I may cut it short. Will it matter? Will it affect my race performance? No!

Sorry but this is the point I keep trying to make, the “stuff and fluff” that most consumers want their devices to tell them is not going to help you get fit, lose weight or become more competitive. Those things require commitment and consistency where your daily “feeling and recovery” do not matter.
How YOU feel during your workout matters, not how the watch tells you how you feel. If you want to use HRV effectively, it is a bit more complicated.
https://medium.com/@altini_marco/on-heart-rate-variability-hrv-and-readiness-394a499ed05b
https://medium.com/@altini_marco/the-ultimate-guide-to-heart-rate-variability-hrv-part-4-909b52f71131

@brad_olwin said in Suunto 7 Successor:

My last two days have been very stressful, we had our first Nationally competitive agility dog become completely paralyzed overnight and had to euthanize him.

I’m sorry for your loss. I feel you, four years ago I had to make the same decision

Regarding the “stuff and fluff” part, I fully agree.

olymay

@brad_olwin firstly, I am extremely sorry to hear about your dog. I am a big lover of dogs and had many in the family over the years, I fully understand how much of the family they become.

Stuff and fluff, I like stuff and fluff. And I even find it useful.

I am far from a seasoned athlete and have a long, long way to go before I can rely on my own knowledge and experience to make informed decisions, on my own, about my training.

I want the stuff and fluff mostly as a form of encouragement. So that I can track and see an improvement. Also, on the days when I don’t always feel like going for a run (which at the moment is most days) if the watch is telling me that I am fully charged and ready to go, then I will be more likely get off my ar$e and go.

The more I look into the details of my gf’s body battery from the Venu, the more I like it and the more I can see it is trustworthy. It has predicted her getting a cold 24-36 hours in advance. It reacted to her getting her Covid vaccine (all three of them, and the third was different due to it being a different manufacturer).

How will I use this? I like data and it gives me confidence that I am doing something and making progress. I also like to see the data on recovery and if I should leave it an extra day to rest my legs, or to man up and get out there.

I also want this data to be part of the adaptive training plan. If my last run pushed me a bit hard and my HR was too high, then it can tone it down. Or, if it was too easy then it can step it up slightly and push me a bit more.
If left to my own decisions I will either play it far too safe, or push far too hard (or, as is most likely, swing from one to the other).
I know a few people who have used the Garmin free coach and they all love it for training for a specific target. A number of them also follow the daily recommended runs it suggests and it works well for them (it takes into account the recovery state of your body and adapts accordingly).
I would love this on a Suunto watch.

In a perfect world, I would have a personal trainer who monitor sensors, track my progress, give me tips, plan my workouts, etc. But that is simply not going to happen.
An advanced watch is the closest I am going to get.
I want it to be a Suunto watch, so if they can release something soon (or at least make an announcement) then I will likely buy it.
I MUCH prefer the Suunto software experience to Garmin, and the forums are great (you guys are brilliant, seriously, a massive thank you) so I do not want to go anywhere.

Do I need it all? No. But much of it will definitely benefit me.

Brad_Olwin

@olymay said in Suunto 7 Successor:

The more I look into the details of my gf’s body battery from the Venu, the more I like it and the more I can see it is trustworthy. It has predicted her getting a cold 24-36 hours in advance. It reacted to her getting her Covid vaccine (all three of them, and the third was different due to it being a different manufacturer).

I believe this, these are big stressors and will show up when you become ill.

I also want this data to be part of the adaptive training plan. If my last run pushed me a bit hard and my HR was too high, then it can tone it down. Or, if it was too easy then it can step it up slightly and push me a bit more.
If left to my own decisions I will either play it far too safe, or push far too hard (or, as is most likely, swing from one to the other).
I know a few people who have used the Garmin free coach and they all love it for training for a specific target. A number of them also follow the daily recommended runs it suggests and it works well for them (it takes into account the recovery state of your body and adapts accordingly).
I would love this on a Suunto watch.

An adaptive training plan will not prepare you for racing ultras, in fact, I believe it will worsen your training for ultras. The plans I am aware of are geared toward marathons and shorter races, primarily to improve your pace, which is not going to help you get into ultras.
I’ve said enough here, and I’ve said it over and over again. I won’t comment on this again because what you are looking for from Garmin does not exist. Neither will it exist from Suunto if complex intervals and training plans from 3rd parties are brought to the watch.
There are TrainingPeaks plans that can get you into ultras, they are easy to follow and you do not need a watch to tell you do a 1.5h run today in high zone 1 or low zone 2…….Easy enough to simply do, consistency is what you need and you should not be pushing HR AFAIK given where you are in your training. If you are training above your AeT you are compromising your training.

You can also read this, from an athlete that does an incredible number of hours per year in multiple disciplines. He makes me look like a couch potato. See how he decides effort and recovery, then follow him on Strava and you will see it in action. He lives close by and I’ve bumped into him several times.
https://www.suunto.com/sports/News-Articles-container-page/how-to-mix-it-up-when-you-love-too-many-outdoor-sports/