Sleep Tracking

I noticed this behavior with S5. It can detect quite good when i fall a sleep. But it often doesn’t recognize when i wake up. I must get up from bed and walk or move with hands for a while for watch to notice that i woke up. And during night it sometimes doesn’t notice i got up and went to toilete. So if i am away from bed for only few minutes, it often didn’t notice at all. There is room for improvement, but i am not sure what precision can be achivied with these kind of device.

Last night wake up, went to kitchen, eat, go to bathroom, back to sleep, still s9p got continuous sleep.
Also I didn’t went to sleep at that time, I may have lay down on bed but was on the phone having a video call and moved.
It is not first time this happens . If I can help the devs let me know.

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@andré-faria but it has awake 33h. It won’t segment the sleep.

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos said in Sleep Tracking:

@andré-faria but it has awake 33h. It won’t segment the sleep.

Ok that is already more clear. But since in the end my real go to sleep time was like 22:40 and not 21:38 (between those timings I was on bed on the phone, moving and as I said , get up, kitchen, prepare something to eat, bathroom) I would think the watch would detect that 21:38 was not at all the sleeping hour.
At least that was what happened when I had Garmin (fr45,245, f6s). Maybe something related to sensitivy of accelerometer?

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@andré-faria hmm

ChrisA

@andré-faria For me it’s the other way around: went to toilette on 5:15 and back to bed (which is the room next door - 7m to walk, took as a whole 2 minutes) and the Suunto S9P thinks I am awake . Sleeptime set to 21:30-07:15, Auto DND 23:00 to 6:00 . Also fell asleep around 23:20 and not an hour later like it assumes.

But also have near perfect hits with the S9P. The best sleep metrics I got from my Fitbit devices, second best from Polar. Suunto is on par with Garmin, but in the Garmin app you could edit the Start- and endtime which then was filled up with light sleep.

Jamie BG

@andré-faria
You would need to try and see your wake periods against your time, which I don’t think the suunto shows as a graph from what I can remember, but as you do have wake time it will have picked up when you were up and about.

In regards to not picking up your conference call that is nothing new - if you are sitting reasonably still, and your HR is down (i.e. watching TV, lying on the bed) the watch quite reasonably assumes that you have fallen asleep and will record it as light sleep. In future make a note to make a serious movement every 15/20 mins (still trying to work out the period it uses) or make your sleep time later.

It is one of the things that I like in how Garmin shows the same sleep tracking, in that it also provides details of the sleep stages against a time on a graph, so you can see the sleep cycles etc, and it can show movement, respiration and SPO2 readings against your stages. I just wish it also had the duration trend graphs that suunto has which you can put average HR etc against them, as I found that super useful when checking out the my sleeping trends.

Patrick Löffler

@jamie-bg Hi Jamie. Which devices did you use for the sleep tracking?

Jamie BG

@patrick-löffler
I have used a variety in the past. used to use fitness bands from huawei, sony, fitbit - all of them said I had great sleep despite my chronic fatigue, so stopped using them - turns out my chronic fatigue was due to obstructive apnea @ +60apnea/hour, which was diagnosed by doctors after a sleep clinic session.

I now track my sleep with a CPAP machine, S7 and Fenix 6x Pro Solar.

The CPAP machine does an excellent job of duration, gives me details on the number of apnea which points to whether I am getting deep/rem sleep, and show me mask leakage (have 12bars being pumped down me, so can be prone to leakage, which can increase apnea. As a general rule I now generally am less than 3apnea per hour (as long as less than 14 it means you will be getting rem/deep sleep).

The suunto 7 (firstbeat sleep tracking) and the Fenix 6x Pro (same firstbeat sleep tracking) - only difference is with amount of recovery it produces for body resources (S7) and body battery (F6), as S7 uses firstbeat recovery rate and its rubbish- far too few resources, whereas the F6 uses Garmin’s recovery rate which provides a much higher recovery rate on the same quality score (both use firstbeat quality score), and is much more in line with how my body feels.

I find the firstbeat sleep tracking based on duration normally understates it a little, but most I have seen is 30mins, it also occasionally will capture me as light sleep when siitting very still watching a movie, but happens less with F6 as Pulse Ox light lets me know, however the sleep cycles seem very relatable and seem realistic based on how normal sleep cycles work i.e. never see rem in first 90mins, and the first rem is always a quick session, deep sleep is pretty much always before first REM session and is normally between 20-40mins. Deep and rem sleep are pretty much always over 25% of total sleep - which pretty much tracks to what is the normal. Of course sometimes when I drink alcohol before bed, eat something, and or am coming down with something (as the govt infecting me covid showed) it can adjust and show in my sleep cycles and quality - which is correct - it should.

Patrick Löffler

@jamie-bg Thank you very much for your answer. I am currently constantly switching between Garmin Forerunner 945 LTE, Suunto 9 Peak and Polar Vantage V2. Just a feeling, the Polar seems to have the edge on the other two concerning sleep tracking. But I love to wear the S9P so much I try to find proof that it gives me also a valuable sleep and body resource tracking.

Jamie BG

@patrick-löffler 945 uses the new firstbeat tracking (same as fenix & suunto 7), and seems to match pretty well. Not sure what sleep tracking the S9 is using.

ChrisA

@patrick-löffler I also compared Vantage against S9P (wearing both at night) because Polar sleep tracking was/is always spot on how I feel and sleep and also the awake times. Last seven days the S9P missed an hour of sleep on Monday and Tuesday (seeing me awake too early) and often counts too much awake time during the night

So in my eyes there’s room for improvement on the S9P side. I would love to have the “are you awake” question that’s on the S7 (and on all polar models btw) as an easy way to have the exact wake up time…

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@chrisa could you broaden the sleep times and check how it goes ?

Patrick Löffler

@chrisa Thanks. That is a really good comparison. Which of the two watches do you enjoy more? And in your experience will Suunto be capable and motivated to improve the sleep tracking? Would be awesome if they would. And yes the “are you awake” question is super simple and effective. For me out of 945LTE, Vantage V2 and S9P, I enjoy the S9P currently most.

ChrisA

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Will do and report back

ChrisA

@patrick-löffler I really also like Polars webapp - which is hands down the best and I think their devices like the Vantage are great too - very developed and sophisticated. But I dislike their policy of not updating two year old devices and also that they lack the navigation and waypoint features, but if one is looking for a solid sportswatch Polar sure is a good choice…

I really tried a lot of brands (Coros, Polar Garmin…) but in the end I really love Suunto and the S9P. Suunto’s ease of use, the built quality and the Suunto app which evolves more and more and how easy you create routes and POI, or the heatmaps, or the how I can analyse all the data … etc.

Would really like to understand what triggered the watch to say I only went to sleep at this time.
I was lying down of bed (trying to sleep) without moving at least from 22h. I don’t recall of moving…
Funny that on last posts where I said I was on video call I moved a lot, changed position , turn around, etc and the watch said I was sleeping.
@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos this start/end of sleep is connected with algorithm of sleep or just accelerometer?
Can’t stop thinking it is related to accelerometer. The same way when we move the watch it doesn’t trigger the light (I kinda need to shake it), I believe for start/end it is kinda the same.
Let me know what you think.

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@andré-faria it uses the accel.

What are your sleep times ?

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos said in Sleep Tracking:

@andré-faria it uses the accel.

What are your sleep times ?

On the watch?
22h to 08h

Jamie BG

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos - what sleep tracking are the S9B & S9P using? Suunto? Latest first beat? something else?

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@andré-faria set it much earlier. 21 .