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    Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Suunto 5
    suunto 5runningcadencesteps
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    • juhis70J Offline
      juhis70
      last edited by

      My Suunto 5 records my running cadence wrong, and also running steps. No problems in walking/hiking. For example today’s run:
      f8ba3fc4-43f8-49c1-a46c-41b549b56a69-image.png
      4631c799-b17d-4307-8334-d9b6c2bf3fd5-image.png
      And here comes the reason for those numbers:
      a02938d7-2b1e-457a-b58f-737ebf6b7f1b-image.png
      Cadence shows only half most of the time. And that really is exactly half of the correct value, not just any random reading, and this could be corrected by software.

      Real avg cadence for this run was 87 rpm and steps around 14349.

      I’m posting here to see if anyone else has the same problem.

      EgikaE 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • BulkanB Offline
        Bulkan Moderator
        last edited by

        Just running? No poles?

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        • EgikaE Offline
          Egika Platinum Member @juhis70
          last edited by

          @juhis70 Cadence in Suunto world is rpm (revolutions per minute) - in the sense of revolutions. One revolution would be a left plus a right foot stride.

          I know others count each foot separately. Where do you get your “real” values from?

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          • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
            Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager
            last edited by

            Steps are not part of the cadence just FYI

            Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
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            • juhis70J Offline
              juhis70
              last edited by

              @Bulkan
              just running, no poles

              @Egika
              I’m aware of Suunto using rpm instead of spm. Easy way to get “real” steps is from a wrist band that calculates steps.

              @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos
              Well, they may be handled separately in watch, and that really does not matter. But by definition running average cadence = (running steps) / (running minutes) spm. Divide that by 2 and you get rpm. But as I said, that does not matter. Both are wrong and quite insane values (and cadence graph, too).

              Dimitrios KanellopoulosD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @juhis70
                last edited by

                @juhis70 yeah I see the insanity for sure…

                Does this happen all the time? Is the watch “not wobbling on wrist”?

                Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                Creator of Quantified-Self.io
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                https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
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                • juhis70J Offline
                  juhis70 @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
                  last edited by

                  @dimitrios-kanellopoulos Yes this happens on every run. Sometimes it “locks” more to the correct cadence, sometimes more to the “half-cadence”. Watch is quite firmly on my left wrist.

                  Dimitrios KanellopoulosD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                    Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @juhis70
                    last edited by

                    @juhis70 has it been link this all the time ?

                    This smells HW

                    Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                    Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                    youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                    https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                    https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

                    juhis70J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • juhis70J Offline
                      juhis70 @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
                      last edited by

                      @dimitrios-kanellopoulos All the time, from the first run. And not just that. I sent my (first) watch to Suunto as they suspected HW problem. They replaced the watch with a new (or refurbished?) one.

                      And it has exactly the same problem! Actually this new watch locks to the half cadence more easily.

                      It might be that HW+SW is not compatible with my arm swing. However this could be corrected by SW perfectly.

                      I can download the .FIT, then go through the cadences, every time watch gives cadence <= 55, multiply it by two (just quick and dirty solution, not checking speed for example). And here’s the resulting graph from today’s run:

                      de651aa8-a765-48d9-b89d-94bafba6c76c-image.png

                      (as I’m a programmer, I’ve already automated the steps from FIT to corrected grapg)

                      The watch could do this with more logic (check speed to see if I walk or run). Now it gives FIT records where speed > 10 km/h and cadence < 55, which is not possible, unless you’re 4 meters tall. And the watch knows I’m not.

                      Others have had similar problems, so I’m not completely alone. Here’s an ancient but exactly the same problem with Ambient 2: https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/suunto-ambit-2-cadence-problems.2189745/

                      f70433f4-dd19-41e1-89a4-4d9849bb293f-image.png

                      Also with Garmin:
                      Forerunner 745: https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/running-multisport/f/forerunner-745/248630/why-my-cadence-suddenly-drop
                      Forerunner 245: https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/running-multisport/f/forerunner-245-series/213605/cadence-randomly-drops

                      (so I’m not switching to Garmin, if this is not solved)

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                      • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                        Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager
                        last edited by

                        @juhis70 that is strange. Tbh first time I see this also for ambit and Garmin.

                        What is the pace of the workout if I may ask ?

                        Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                        Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                        youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                        https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
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                        juhis70J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • juhis70J Offline
                          juhis70 @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
                          last edited by

                          @dimitrios-kanellopoulos Workout data (most of it) is in the first post. Average pace was 5’52/km.

                          Dimitrios KanellopoulosD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                          • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                            Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @juhis70
                            last edited by

                            @juhis70 very strange. I am out of clues.

                            Perhaps some other test? For example to wear the watch higher in the arm (almost at the bicep level) ?

                            Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                            Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                            youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
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                            • ? Offline
                              A Former User
                              last edited by

                              @juhis70 you mentioned that when walking/hiking the cadence is okay. You could try to run with one of those sport profiles and see what cadence it results or do a short walk with the running profile, whichever you prefer.

                              juhis70J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • juhis70J Offline
                                juhis70 @Guest
                                last edited by juhis70

                                @andrasveres A walk in running mode gives correct avg cadence and a cadence graph that is next to perfect. Counted steps are low though, I don’t have a walking stride length of 2,275 meters (3760 meters/3305 steps = step length, x 2 gives stride length). It is more like 1,6 meters. But I don’t really care about the steps, I care about the cadence bug.

                                574c4180-96ba-433d-9593-fa80a7a8ce10-image.png
                                57f91757-57de-451e-bc28-259e2e40b714-image.png
                                866fdeeb-e3f7-4e8b-a216-5f0fb087d914-image.png

                                Dimitrios KanellopoulosD ? 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                                  Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @juhis70
                                  last edited by Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

                                  @juhis70 so it looks like something bounces more in running mode to me , right ? Because from walking to running that is one bug parameter change , g force I think (maybe I am wrong ).

                                  Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                                  Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                                  youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                                  https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                                  https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

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                                  • ? Offline
                                    A Former User @juhis70
                                    last edited by

                                    @juhis70 would be interesting to see the results of a running with the walking/hiking mode too. Just out of curiosity, do you wear anything near your watch that could interfere with it?! 🤔

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                                    • juhis70J Offline
                                      juhis70
                                      last edited by juhis70

                                      Today’s run
                                      0650babb-bac6-4990-a6cc-1a70975117ef-image.png
                                      293b0cd3-30e4-4780-bc91-f37175504778-image.png

                                      99726093-6a28-4726-b6c1-8592da03a89c-image.png

                                      The SW makes here a bad (wrong) choise selecting the “half cadence” frequency from all the possibilities, considering for example speed.

                                      Look at four record pairs (8 records), that is four consequent seconds, from .FIT file, especially cadence and speed:

                                      1. record
                                      • cadence: 88 [rpm] <— ALL GOOD EVERYTHING
                                      • distance: 2.661 [km]
                                      • heart_rate: 121 [bpm]
                                      • speed: 10.296 [km/h]
                                      • vertical_speed: -0.072 [km/h]
                                      1. hrv
                                      • time: (0.496, 0.49) [s]
                                      1. record
                                      • cadence: 87 [rpm] <— ALL GOOD EVERYTHING
                                      • distance: 2.664 [km]
                                      • heart_rate: 122 [bpm]
                                      • speed: 10.296 [km/h]
                                      • vertical_speed: -0.072 [km/h]
                                      1. hrv
                                      • time: (0.498, 0.496) [s]
                                      1. record
                                      • cadence: 44 [rpm] <— WHAT JUST HAPPENED? WRONG CHOICE!
                                      • distance: 2.667 [km]
                                      • heart_rate: 120 [bpm]
                                      • speed: 10.296 [km/h] <— SAME SPEED! 44 IS IMPOSSIBLE CADENCE
                                      • vertical_speed: -0.072 [km/h]
                                      1. hrv
                                      • time: (0.495, 0.491) [s]
                                      1. record
                                      • cadence: 44 [rpm] <— WE’RE SCREWED
                                      • distance: 2.67 [km]
                                      • heart_rate: 122 [bpm]
                                      • speed: 10.296 [km/h]
                                      • vertical_speed: -0.072 [km/h]

                                      If I take the FIT data and manipulate it, I can reconstruct a good cadence graph, and calculate correct average cadence. Here’s the cadence graph overlayed with my corrected graph:

                                      c19a1735-a5cf-4eb0-9abf-cde350f60e75-image.png

                                      I could wear the watch on my bicep or my leg or something, but I don’t want to. It may be bad sensor, but then it is already second in row, which would be bad quality. And to me, the sensor seems to give good values but the SW chooses wrong. To me this is not a HW bug but a SW bug.

                                      Dimitrios KanellopoulosD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                      • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                                        Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @juhis70
                                        last edited by

                                        @juhis70 said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

                                        To me this is not a HW bug but a SW bug.

                                        Lets investigate that.

                                        I ll need the workout id (SA link share) to get the raw data and check.

                                        That said , if its SW we should have some more users with the same issue.

                                        Also just making sure you are using Android Suunto app right?

                                        Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                                        Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                                        youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                                        https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                                        https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

                                        ? juhis70J 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • ? Offline
                                          A Former User @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
                                          last edited by

                                          @dimitrios-kanellopoulos said in Running cadence only half most of the time. Running steps incorrect, too:

                                          That said , if its SW we should have some more users with the same issue.

                                          That’s why I suggested to try different sport profiles to rule out a corrupted profile case (aka software issue).

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                                          • juhis70J Offline
                                            juhis70 @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
                                            last edited by

                                            @dimitrios-kanellopoulos It may be a very rare problem, like 1/100 or 1/1000, people have different arm swings and running styles. It may also be more common, but many people don’t look the average cadence or don’t find the cadence graph from SA (you have to swipe it). All watch owners don’t run.

                                            It may even be a newish bug, like someone “simplified” or “optimized” the code handling accelerate sensor data or something. (I’m a developer myself…)

                                            I’ve have run with default running sports mode, and a custom sports mode (based on running). And I’ve done that with two watches already, with same problem. The chances of both having similarly corrupted sports profiles are so slim. I did try walking with Running profile yesterday, and that was ok.

                                            I’m using Android SA. I just clicked “send logs to Suunto” in Suunto App and it did something.

                                            Is the ID (60c9975495d42602d25bedcb) enough or do you need the full link?

                                            Dimitrios KanellopoulosD ? 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
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