GPS lock time / AGPS refresh?

Nigel Taylor 0

In the Suunto watch app, my time to GPS fix, which I’m sure was <10seconds or even less than 2 or 3 seconds initially (a month or so ago)…seems to be longer now…consistently taking up to what feels like a minute.

How/when does AGPS data get refreshed??

I am never connected to phone or another data connection when I am about to start a run - I assume/hope the phone app just pushes the almanac as part of regular syncing??

Is there some place I can see when this data was last refreshed for me??

EDIT - Found this - “Note: If you can’t connect to Wifi, you get GPS updates once a week via Bluetooth.” - is that definitely happening??

Same link also says, “Suunto 7 can also use GLONASS and Bediou”. Do I have to enable this somewhere??? (aware GLONASS can give quicker lock in certain circumstances).

Jamie BG

@nigel-taylor-0
Never found it an issue. I tend to press my suunto app before I leave the house (1-2 mins before) and by time I am out the door and locked the house it is normally ready to go. if not I go to map screen, press icon which tends to sort of refresh and fixes in a lock (dark icon instead of greyed out).
I have noticed that when in GPS only mode, fix does/can take an extra minute or so to fix.

on the odd occasion when it hasn’t fixed within 2 mins I have set off anyway and have never found it out by more than 20m compared to other times when I have done the same route with an immediate fix.

Nigel Taylor 0

@jamie-bg said in GPS lock time / AGPS refresh?:

I have noticed that when in GPS only mode, fix does/can
take an extra minute or so to fix.

Where do I configure “GPS-only” vs “GPS+GLONASS”?

Can’t find it mentioned anywhere on the online manual, and not where I might expect it on the Watch or Phone app.

Jamie BG

@nigel-taylor-0 GPS only mode - put your watch into plane mode - forces it to use watches GPS only. Though I think that if you use the suunto app it automatically reverts to watch GPS (pretty sure Brad or someone else stated that); which is different to apps like Google fit, which will rely on phone GPS + phone wifi etc for fixes, unless you put in GPS/plane mode.

Not aware of any way we can set which set of sattelites we want to use.

Nigel Taylor 0

@jamie-bg ah ok, by “GPS only” mode you mean the way I use it already rather than “GPS only” vs “GPS+GLONASS”.

But my confusion is this (airplane mode and/or being out of range of phone when I start an activity) is what I did from day one a month ago, and it was DEFINITELY faster at getting a lock that first week or so.

It just has the feeling to me of the almanac data not being updated since the first week, as that would explain quick lock and now slower lock.

Jamie BG

@nigel-taylor-0 no idea. I tend to use mine most days, and tend to go into the phone app regularly and tend to watch there regularly too. Then also pretty muchon charger most nights, so wifi active too.
So depending on how it updates am probably getting it done regularly and hence no issues.

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

The watch gets agps via WiFi or bt from the web not related to suunto app afaik.

About glonass etc no way. This is a system of qualcomm and uses both.

Nigel Taylor 0

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos said in GPS lock time / AGPS refresh?:

The watch gets agps via WiFi or bt from the web not related to suunto app afaik.

About glonass etc no way. This is a system of qualcomm and uses both.

I think this https://www.suunto.com/en-gb/Support/faq-articles/Suunto-7/how-to-improve-your-gps-connection-and-recording-data/ needs rewording.

“Suunto 7 can also use Glonass and BeiDou for location information.” implies this is optional, it would make more sense in English if it said “Suunto 7 will also use Glonass and BeiDou for location information where available”.

On the other point, I may try enabling WiFi for a bit and seeing if that makes a difference next lock. I’m not convinced that the service that updates AGPS data is necessarily working in a timely fashion via BT.

Jamie BG

@nigel-taylor-0 But might explain why it can take a while if you set watch to plane mode, then launch suunto app.
And why I don’t normally have an issue with it, as I tend to launch suunto app while getting ready - which as it still has a connection is probably why I am not getting an issue, then switch to plane mode, then pull suunto app back up, then launch it once out the door.

Nigel Taylor 0

@jamie-bg The implication being that AGPS is refreshed by opening the Suunto App?

But according to Dimitrious, AGPS is a watch function outside of the app, so it can’t be…unless its a Watch Function that happens only when a request for location data is received (from an app) ?

Looks like I have some tests to do!

First one is - leave WiFi on through the day, and otherwise do what I normally do (switch flight mode on BEFORE I then go out and start the Suunto Watch app). (ie - does ‘background AGPS just work’ (via WiFi))

Second test would be similar to what you do - leave WiFi on - start the app whilst indoors - go outside, switch flight mode on and then go (AGPS possibly updates only when location is requested?).

Nigel Taylor 0

@nigel-taylor-0 said in GPS lock time / AGPS refresh?:

First one is - leave WiFi on through the day, and otherwise do what I normally do (switch flight mode on BEFORE I then go out and start the Suunto Watch app). (ie - does ‘background AGPS just work’ (via WiFi))

This doesn’t seem to make any difference whatsoever. I had WiFi enabled today, spent some time on charger, forced a sync via SA etc etc. but, enabling flight mode then going outside, and GPS lock took up to a minute.

Second test would be similar to what you do - leave WiFi on - start the app whilst indoors - go outside, switch flight mode on and then go (AGPS possibly updates only when location is requested?).

Need to test this more completely, I did this, went outside, fired up the app, waited 10 seconds or so and no lock, but then I swiped down, clicked the map, clicked again, and the greyed out arrow went solid.

Quit the app. Went back inside. Waited 15mins. Went out…same again, no lock within 10 secs or so (didn’t wait the full 30secs to a minute, its VERY COLD!), but as soon as I clicked into the map, it seemed to lock straight away.

Could be coincidence. Tried again…didnt wait 10secs, swiped down, clicked into the app and seemed to lock location straight away!

Inside house now, by a window. Wifi on…

Open the SA, stare at the screen, doesn’t get a lock after waiting 10-30seconds.
Open the SA app, immediately swipe the screen down, click into the map, gets a lock within 2 seconds.

Still inside…Switch Airplane mode on…
Open the SA, doesn’t get a lock, swipe down and click, doesn’t get a “quick” lock (might get a lock if I hang about by the window for 30secs to a minute perhaps?).

Double check - Switch Airplane off, swipe down and click on map…quick GPS lock on is back again!

So - it kind of feels like AGPS is not cached, relies on a WiFi connection, and can be accelerated by tapping into the map or I have something switched somewhere which is preventing AGPS caching?) OR It is all working and simply the SA isn’t displaying lock status correctly??)

This is not good whilst at the moment I’m doing a lot of running from my front door, and can get a lock using my WiFi - that isn’t normal, normal is to be distant from my phone or home when I start running - and it seems like I won’t get a quick lock in that case??

And rolling back to the start, I quite probably had WiFi left on in those early days, and quite possibly tapped away at the map ahead of every run, cos well, its a map!

Nigel Taylor 0

Intriguingly and at odds with the above…having had WiFi mode left on all day (and done that trick with tapping the map to seemingly accelerate the lock earlier - but ONLY whilst ‘online’)…

Having gone out tonight whilst walking the dog I had a little play in between freezing my fingers off.

Starting from Airplane mode, I now consistently get a GPS lock within 5-15 seconds. That’s perfectly good and acceptable, nothing like the “around a minute” I was getting over the last few weeks.

BUT - if I drag the map down, tap the screen, that GPS lock time seems to dramatically shorten (even if I’ve been in airplane mode).

My conclusion is that AGPS does work, although it might have needed a kick into action (maybe it doesn’t work as expected if left with Bluetooth only enabled), AND secondly, the SA on the watch somehow creates a different behaviour if you display the map…is there a different Map or Location API call that has a more aggressive ‘give me a GPS location’ request or something??

Anyway, I’m now happy I can get a quick lock in less than 30seconds even in airplane mode, which is all I want really - and I suspect leaving WiFi toggled on in normal circumstances is the key. I guess I’ll find out over coming weeks.

Nigel Taylor 0

@nigel-taylor-0 Having experimented more with this, I’d say there’s a definite issue with WearOS not keeping AGPS data up to date if you have WiFi constantly disabled.

I have it disabled (I don’t really see the point of it other than to drain battery faster) - and notice my GPS lock is quite slow - 30secs to a minute.
BUT - if I’m going to go for a run, if I toggle WiFi on, leave it on for a couple of hours (and also stick it on the charger for a few mins) - if I then disable WiFi again, I find my next lock on is very quick - of the order of less than 5 seconds.

Basically - I don’t believe that there is an AGPS every 7 days if on Bluetooth only. Will this be resolved? (or ideally if there was a way to force an update even better).

Jamie BG

@nigel-taylor-0 - no point in leaving wifi disabled, as wifi is only active in certain cases:

bluetooth connection off.
bluetooth connection lost (if you set the phone wear os app to no optimization it will remain in phone memory - even if closed (have to force close to stop it) will just remain in background - and you will not lose connection unless you go out of range, leave phone of wrist for over an hour so it goes into sleep mode)
unit is on charger
app specifically requires it - only one that tends to do that is google play store (setting to manual updates solves this issue).

So based on this really no point in keeping wifi off.

Nigel Taylor 0

@jamie-bg said in GPS lock time / AGPS refresh?:

@nigel-taylor-0 - no point in leaving wifi disabled, as wifi is only active in certain cases:

bluetooth connection off.

bluetooth connection lost (if you set the phone wear os app to no optimization it will remain in phone memory - even if closed (have to force close to stop it) will just remain in background - and you will not lose connection unless you go out of range, leave phone of wrist for over an hour so it goes into sleep mode)

unit is on charger

app specifically requires it - only one that tends to do that is google play store (setting to manual updates solves this issue).

So based on this really no point in keeping wifi off.

I’ve read all that before, but having WiFi left on automatic definitely results in worse battery life for me.

I suspect that “Bluetooth lost” is the major cause…I walk the dog 3 times a day for approx 1.5hrs total, where I leave my phone behind. Similarly if I go for a run I tend to leave phone behind, but don’t always remember to switch airplane mode on…
…I think if its searching for Bluetooth, can’t find it, so decides to search for WiFi, that can be quite a drain? (whereas searching for Bluetooth and not searching for WiFi (if I go for dog walks / runs, but have WiFi off) seems to drain a lot less.

I don’t know if I maybe spend a lot of time outside Bluetooth range of my phone but inside WiFi range of the house, which could cause higher drain (I tend to leave mobile on my desk 2 floors up, rather than carry it around with me) - I don’t go downstairs to make a LOT of coffee, only 6 or so cups a day - plus answer door to assorted delivery’s etc.

Jamie BG

@nigel-taylor-0 - then definitely lost connection, so yes could see why it would make sense to keep wifi off.
But got to think that maybe your watch choice is off, and wouldn’t have been better off with a 4G/LTE watch.

Nigel Taylor 0

@jamie-bg I disagree, the docs say that AGPS is updated weekly if relying on Bluetooth connection to Phone.

That would be fine for me, and I’d leave WiFi off continuously, I believe there’s a bug in WearOS that is stopping this weekly AGPS update from happening successfully.

I know exactly when I’m connected or not and more than happy with being disconnected when I go out.
LTE connected watch definitely would NOT work for me (not with todays battery and optimisation tech anyway!).

My requirements for AMOLED/AppleWatch levels of visibility & brightness and at least 50mm size plus some form of map that is better than just a breadcrumb trail, along with an ability to track a 6hr or so activity, along with being a vaguely smart watch with notifications and on watch payments compatible with my bank (ie - not Garmin Pay!) are my main criteria - and to work fully with an Android phone.

The S7 is the clear winner and almost a watch on its own segment in that regard…more than happy with it, but doesn’t stop me wanting a few improvements and efficiencies brought to the table.

I guess the answer in the meantime is to leave WiFi on automatic, see AGPS data effectively maintained, and remember to hit airplane when I head out with phone left behind.