From Suunto to another brand, and back to Suunto. My experience :)

pacos

@surfboomerang oh yes, thanks. I read it.

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

Take a look at this recent discussion here.

https://forum.suunto.com/topic/5571/gps-with-navigation-map/14

Might help for the next utmb.

Brad_Olwin

@pacos FusedTrack is unreal, you will get tracks that are very similar to 1s fix. I use this on my long races and my long outings. Load a route and waypoints for aid stations, then set in Endurance mode. If you are using an HR belt you should get near 50h, you can also set up a custom battery mode to help maximize battery. I often do not need the screen on all the time in long races so I set the screen to time out, this can save a lot of battery.

stromdiddily

@Brad_Olwin can you set it to time out even in best recording?

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@stromdiddily yes you can. It then can bump up the best performance to something like 40h if not hr or belt is used.

sky-runner

I’ve been using the same competitor watch (Fenix 6X) since January and wanted to share my take on it compared to Suunto 9.

Strengths compared to Suunto 9:

Battery life (obviously)
Maps - overall useful, but somewhat difficult to use when trail running due to not optimal contrast. It feels maps are optimized for hiking rather than running, because maps details are too tiny. There is high contrast option for maps as well as an option to reduce the level of details, but I feel even that isn’t sufficient.
GPS accuracy - Fenix had better GPS / distance accuracy at the time when I bought the watch in January, but after several updates I think it became less useful for trail running. It seems GPS was tuned to reduce wobbling and increase smoothness which made it quite a bit less accurate on trails. I remember Suunto had done the same in November or December 2019, and at the time that quite irritated me. I don’t know how GPS accuracy compares now.
Vertical ascent/descent accuracy is better for me on Fenix. Suunto algorithm is way too conservative.
Customizability - Fenix UI is quite complicated, but the flip side of that is that everything, literally everything can be customized. And that can be done in a middle of an activity while not interrupting recording. If you don’t like screen layout or data fields, that is actually quite easy to fix. Also Fenix supports mixed units, and units can be customized for most major metrics separately, which I quite appreciate. Also many things can be customized separately for day and night. Also different options can be customized separately for different sport profiles.
I liked the idea of automatically adding a few customizable screens when Navigation is turned on. For example when I start a route navigation, I also automatically get a ClimbPro screen, but also an additional screen that I customized to show name of the next waypoint, distance, and ETA to next waypoint, and I don’t see that screen when there is no navigation.
Power profiles are more flexible than on Suunto 9.
Fitness features are implemented quite a bit better than in Suunto, and integration with the app is better.
Much more flexible API which allows custom apps, widgets, and custom data fields.
5 physical buttons
Screen contrast and readability is better on Fenix (this is comparing sapphire Fenix to sapphire Suunto 9)
Garmin Connect App is more polished.
Website.
Integration with Strava - for example a Strava route can be automatically synced to Garmin by just starring it on Strava.
Strava live segments, although the implementation is messy
Ability to access the watch storage directly via USB and not depend on software to download activities or upload routes.

Suunto 9 strengths compared to Fenix 6X:

Style - Suunto are better looking watches.
Instant pace is far more accurate on Suunto 9. Instant pace is borderline unusable on Fenix 6 when running on trails - super unstable and biased towards slower than actual pace by 0:45-3:00 mile/min.
I like Suunto button layout better
Zooming map/navigation screen is cumbersome on Fenix. Suunto did that better.
Directional arrows on navigation route are quite useful on Suunto 9, especially when going off route and re-joining route again. Fenix doesn’t have that.
I really disliked that that on Fenix 6X button lock prevents changing data screens. Suunto did that better.
Out of box the Fenix 6X UI was quite messy, which tons of popups and data screens changing seemingly randomly on their own. It was difficult to figure out. Fortunately the watch allowed to turn off or disable all of that. Suunto UI is more streamlined, especially when in activity mode. Although to be honest, I liked Ambit UI even better.
I really disliked the way turn-by-turn instructions on Garmin make user waypoints unusable. Basically, turn-by-turn instructions are auto-generated by Garmin Connect when uploading any route and cannot be disabled, but they are implemented as waypoints, which makes my own waypoints not usable. And on trails the watch ends up giving your turn notifications for every bend of a trail, which is a lot. Fortunately, all of that mess can be bypassed by copying a route directly to the watch via USB. Suunto implementation of waypoints is better.
Route builder is much better in Suunto App. The mobile version of Garmin route builder is borderline unusable, and the one on website is quite bad too. But Garmin is better compatible with various 3rd party route builders such as plotaroute.

zhang965

The funny thing it is,
When you say American outdoor gps brand, I’ll never recall garmin in my head,

You should know garmin has another name as the light of Taiwan.

Nowadays the. Marketing is so powerful

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@zhang965 said in From Suunto to another brand, and back to Suunto. My experience :

You should know garmin has another name as the light of Taiwan.

What do you mean? You know sometimes too much stuff :_D

Saketo Nemo

@zhang965
to be honest i also wondered if Coros was american

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@Saketo-Nemo they claim to be but not sure if they started like this. Right @zhang965 ?

zhang965

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos said in From Suunto to another brand, and back to Suunto. My experience :

@Saketo-Nemo they claim to be but not sure if they started like this. Right @zhang965 ?

Marketing marketing.

Garmin had been created by a Taiwanese and an American. Its biggest factory should be in Taiwan for long time.

When Garmin makes its marketing in Chinese\taiwan market, it always says we are Taiwan’s light blabla, but in other countries, they are American fuxing yeah.

Coros has been created by the owner of WeLoop which is a Chinese brand.

WeLoop has had some bad reputations as no customers support or no firmware updates etc.

The same story, in Chinese market, they say you should support OUR brand, but in overseas, they are American fuxing yeah again.

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@zhang965 wow

thanks

stromdiddily

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos did not know that, awesome!

kk1n76

@zhang965 yes, you’re right. Garmin is never an american brand. It is Taiwan brand all along. Marketing makes it as if it is American brand. In South-East Asia, Garmin was and is always known as Taiwanese watch

zhang965

@kk1n76 said in From Suunto to another brand, and back to Suunto. My experience :

@zhang965 yes, you’re right. Garmin is never an american brand. It is Taiwan brand all along. Marketing makes it as if it is American brand. In South-East Asia, Garmin was and is always known as Taiwanese watch

The international corporation is difficult to clarify.

For example, garmin’s headquarters is in Switzerland.
But nobody consider them as a Swiss brand.

In South East Asia, Taiwan garmin corporation has more power; otherwise in other countries, American garmin corporation leads the marketing. But all local corporations are managed by garmin Switzerland headquarters.

zhang965

Another funny example is Parker pen.

It’s an American brand for long time. Then moved to UK and made in UK, I do remember there was an advertsing plays a contract signing occasion, a English man shows his pen and saying it’s Parker pen British brand.

I was just like ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

And then parker pen bought by Newell Brands so officially they are American again. But their factories are moved to France, st herblain very close to Nantes.

And now check their website, American parker pen’s site is different than other countries!

To me, it’s a historic problem, Parker pen has different logistic or management in US and other countries.

And now you will never see parker pen marks it’s nationality in any advertising . Because… British thinks. It’s a British brand. American thinks it’s American. And french say it’s made in France it’s vive la France. If you ask a Chinese, I suppose you will hear parker pen is a half Chinese brand because they have a big factory in china and acquired some Chinese brands.

I give you another story for free.

You think parker pen is losing in their history? Think about waterman pen which was an American brand as well, then American headquarter has been acquired by waterman French Department (jf waterman) . (Yeah,waterman is just another brand killed by parker pen)

Nowadays, waterman always marks Paris under their company name.

But do you think Waterman like a French name?

Btw. Parker pens are now made in waterman’s factory…

Fenr1r

@zhang965 said in From Suunto to another brand, and back to Suunto. My experience :

The international corporation is difficult to clarify.

Truth. And dating the start of “branding” is also a bit tricky.

Apparently the consistent corporate entity was formed (and HQed) as “ProNav” in the US in '89 and as “Garmin” (Gary Burrell and Kao Min being the founders you mentioned above) in Taiwan (whence much of the money came) in '90.

“ProNav” was already taken, as kind lawyers reminded Burrell & Kao, so “Garmin” was very swiftly brought over … well, Taipei had printed a shedload of letterhead…

FWIW, Garmin’s English language Annual Reports date the company to '89.

For example, garmin’s headquarters is in Switzerland.
But nobody consider them as a Swiss brand.

Well, they’ve had a Toblerone X-section as their logo for a long time. And were briefly HQed in the Caymans. I’d say Switzerland always lay in their future.

Fenr1r

@zhang965 And then there are automobile brands, marques, components, design teams, assembly plants …

@sky-runner said in From Suunto to another brand, and back to Suunto. My experience :

I’ve been using the same competitor watch (Fenix 6X) since January and wanted to share my take on it compared to Suunto 9.

Strengths compared to Suunto 9:

Battery life (obviously)

Maps - overall useful, but somewhat difficult to use when trail running due to not optimal contrast. It feels maps are optimized for hiking rather than running, because maps details are too tiny. There is high contrast option for maps as well as an option to reduce the level of details, but I feel even that isn’t sufficient.

GPS accuracy - Fenix had better GPS / distance accuracy at the time when I bought the watch in January, but after several updates I think it became less useful for trail running. It seems GPS was tuned to reduce wobbling and increase smoothness which made it quite a bit less accurate on trails. I remember Suunto had done the same in November or December 2019, and at the time that quite irritated me. I don’t know how GPS accuracy compares now.

Vertical ascent/descent accuracy is better for me on Fenix. Suunto algorithm is way too conservative.

Customizability - Fenix UI is quite complicated, but the flip side of that is that everything, literally everything can be customized. And that can be done in a middle of an activity while not interrupting recording. If you don’t like screen layout or data fields, that is actually quite easy to fix. Also Fenix supports mixed units, and units can be customized for most major metrics separately, which I quite appreciate. Also many things can be customized separately for day and night. Also different options can be customized separately for different sport profiles.

I liked the idea of automatically adding a few customizable screens when Navigation is turned on. For example when I start a route navigation, I also automatically get a ClimbPro screen, but also an additional screen that I customized to show name of the next waypoint, distance, and ETA to next waypoint, and I don’t see that screen when there is no navigation.

Power profiles are more flexible than on Suunto 9.

Fitness features are implemented quite a bit better than in Suunto, and integration with the app is better.

Much more flexible API which allows custom apps, widgets, and custom data fields.

5 physical buttons

Screen contrast and readability is better on Fenix (this is comparing sapphire Fenix to sapphire Suunto 9)

Garmin Connect App is more polished.

Website.

Integration with Strava - for example a Strava route can be automatically synced to Garmin by just starring it on Strava.

Strava live segments, although the implementation is messy

Ability to access the watch storage directly via USB and not depend on software to download activities or upload routes.

Suunto 9 strengths compared to Fenix 6X:

Style - Suunto are better looking watches.

Instant pace is far more accurate on Suunto 9. Instant pace is borderline unusable on Fenix 6 when running on trails - super unstable and biased towards slower than actual pace by 0:45-3:00 mile/min.

I like Suunto button layout better

Zooming map/navigation screen is cumbersome on Fenix. Suunto did that better.

Directional arrows on navigation route are quite useful on Suunto 9, especially when going off route and re-joining route again. Fenix doesn’t have that.

I really disliked that that on Fenix 6X button lock prevents changing data screens. Suunto did that better.

Out of box the Fenix 6X UI was quite messy, which tons of popups and data screens changing seemingly randomly on their own. It was difficult to figure out. Fortunately the watch allowed to turn off or disable all of that. Suunto UI is more streamlined, especially when in activity mode. Although to be honest, I liked Ambit UI even better.

I really disliked the way turn-by-turn instructions on Garmin make user waypoints unusable. Basically, turn-by-turn instructions are auto-generated by Garmin Connect when uploading any route and cannot be disabled, but they are implemented as waypoints, which makes my own waypoints not usable. And on trails the watch ends up giving your turn notifications for every bend of a trail, which is a lot. Fortunately, all of that mess can be bypassed by copying a route directly to the watch via USB. Suunto implementation of waypoints is better.

Route builder is much better in Suunto App. The mobile version of Garmin route builder is borderline unusable, and the one on website is quite bad too. But Garmin is better compatible with various 3rd party route builders such as plotaroute.

Well, after some weeks I am also an user o F6S Sapphire. This was purchase used, after the good experience with the FR45.
I can relate to most of the points you said. Not for S9 related ones because I didn’t had one.But for suunto in general.
What else do I find:
Pros Garmin Fenix 6s:

Size (the ambit looked like a monster)
Suggested daily workout: somehow a feature for starters, but I find it cool. I am more of a cyclist than a runner, and this allows me to have a suggestion of workout for running (or other sports I believe) that is shapped to improve fitness. It was cool to see that it has days that says only to rest.
Training focus: again suggestions of which type of training to do
Training load: although not the best, for me it is ok, and no need to sync to 3rd party.
Customisable data screens with almost everything we could need/want. a cool one for me are hr and power gauges
Ability to program “moves” and complex intervals and having them on the watch to follow and on your google calendar
-Support every type of sensor ´

Cons Garmin Fenix 6s:

-Unconfortable, despite low weight I noticed it. Better now with a nylon strap.
-UI utterly complicated and ugly. Seeing a suunto makes me drool.
-Notifications: all the time everywhere…some you can turn off…others you can’t (At least I didn’t found how)
-Time to fix gps: maybe I got a “deffective unit” , it takes more than 1 min to fix gps. Even on my balconny it takes too much time. The ambit 3 could even find gps inside home at the same place. After feedling with resets (which resulted in the watch not being able to connect to any phone) I had to inject the firmware via .cgd file (For me a bonus, to be able to acess to watch filesystem) and after that all seemed “ok” and gps fix is faster, but not top notch (or for me, not at the level of a 800eur watch)

Honestly speaking, I don’t understand all the “awesomeness” that people rave about fenix watches.
For sure it is a great tool, it does it all and has almost every option imagined with lots of flexibility, but I don’t find the overal using experience “awesome”. It is ok.
I may be “exagerating” but I thing suunto could have a true competitive watch if some training features were integrated on the watch and via suunto app.
Keeping an eye on future dvps of suunto

amasidlover

@andré-faria I’ve just jumped ship too after getting fed up with faffing with a cable every time I wanted to change a route or setting and have gone from an Ambit3 and picked up a second hand Fenix 3 Sapphire…

Positives on the Fenix:

Structured workouts - this is a big one for me I’m afraid, its so useful for it just to come up with my run workout for the day from training peaks, even if its not a complex set I don’t have to mess about with changing settings on Movescount then finding the cable etc.
Multiple sensors of the same type; I have a power meter on my outdoor bike and an indoor trainer, I no longer have to re-pair power sensors when I change bike (3 times a week at least!) Plus I use a HR strap for some workouts and a wrist based Polar OH1 for others.
Some extra smart features - calendar and weather on the watch are hugely useful.
Syncing of steps / calories back to the app so I can see a history and compare to my food intake and weight.
Not needing a cable to transfer routes.
Estimated times to next way points / end of route and more navigation data fields that can go on ‘main’ screens plus direction indicator to next waypoint at the edge of every screen.

Negatives:

Editing of waypoints and import of GPX routes with waypoints is not good on the Fenix.

To me the Fenix3 actually feels like what an Ambit4 should have been… I was never looking for huge amounts of gimmicks on my wrist, just a bit more polish (like the multiple sensors and the upcoming workouts).