Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@amasidlover Sure no worries I was too prompt

Structured workouts aren’t mentioned at all (although someone commenting on DC Rainmaker’s article notes that they still get synced via Suunto Link even though they can only be created on the, soon to be deceased, Movescount App) - Is the implication that we’re losing those?

I think @margusl (who is also in our forums ) commented this

amasidlover

@amasidlover Also …
4. Now we’re getting all the partner connections is there a future plan for structured workouts to come from TrainingPeaks to the watches? That would make me incredibly happy (and would make me reconsider not buying a Suunto9).

margusl

@amasidlover said in Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?:

Structured workouts /…/

‘Suunto Apps’ /…/

Currently Suuntolink is happy to sync both workouts and apps to watches. It actually handles Workouts better compared to Moveslink2 as ML2 sync since I-don’t-know-when broke the Workout progress view. Manipulating the list of active workouts is also relatively easy, so for a tech savvy A3P users still having access to Movescount app, it absolutely makes sense to spend some extra time and craft bunch of those workouts, even if the number of active ones is limited. After manipulating the list of active Workouts through Movescount API, Suuntolink will update Workouts in the watch accordingly.

And it’s not even that difficult to create those Workouts without the Movescount app (app just sends workout structure as a JSON to Movescount backend service where it’s compiled into binary and stored; in Movescount Android app no attempt has been made to keep this format and structure in secret; proof-of-concept worked out almost fine the other day - modified an existing Workout without MC app and got it into my A3P with Suuntolink + lost all my 15 or so non-active sport modes from Movescount …).

As I see no more mentions of “We will no longer call it Movescount” and such, it seems that there are lot less resources left for all this than planned. And hopefully this means that at Suunto side they just go with a minimum program - will disable activity upload API and are not too eager to spend time and resources for taking down app builder interface and the part of Movescount backend that is responsible for compiling those app sources and workout structures into binary. But I guess we’ll just see.

amasidlover

@margusl Would you mind describing exactly how you “modified an existing Workout without MC app and got it into my A3P with Suuntolink” - I’m wondering if I can knock together a quick tool to translate FIT/MRC/ZWO files (exported from trainingPeaks) into Suunto’s JSON format…

margusl

@amasidlover , sure, but it takes some time - I need to clean my notes. But the default one looks like this:

{
  "name": "My Workout",
  "steps": [
    {
      "duration": {
        "durationName": "time",
        "value": 600
      },
      "target": {
        "targetName": "hr",
        "valueRange": {
          "max": 2.1666666666666665,
          "min": 2
        }
      },
      "text": "Easy jogging",
      "type": {
        "typeName": "warmup"
      }
    },
    {
      "type": {
        "typeName": "repeatStart",
        "value": 3
      }
    },
    {
      "duration": {
        "durationName": "distance",
        "value": 1000
      },
      "target": {
        "targetName": "pace",
        "valueRange": {
          "max": 0.25,
          "min": 0.27
        }
      },
      "text": "Run fast for 1km",
      "type": {
        "typeName": "interval"
      }
    },
    {
      "duration": {
        "durationName": "hr_below",
        "value": 2.1666666666666665
      },
      "target": {
        "targetName": "none",
        "valueRange": {
          "max": 0,
          "min": 0
        }
      },
      "text": "Walk to recover",
      "type": {
        "typeName": "recovery"
      }
    },
    {
      "type": {
        "typeName": "repeatEnd"
      }
    },
    {
      "duration": {
        "durationName": "time",
        "value": 600
      },
      "target": {
        "targetName": "hr",
        "valueRange": {
          "max": 1.8333333333333333,
          "min": 1.3333333333333333
        }
      },
      "text": "Walk to cool down",
      "type": {
        "typeName": "cooldown"
      }
    }
  ],
  "workoutDescription": "Basic running workout"
}

It’s just an object serialized as json, so instead of generating countless workouts in MC app to map everything manually, you probably want to get down to classes that are used for building that wokrout tree. So you probably end up poking a Movescount Android APK with something like jadx. That JSON above should give you a solid set of search terms. You should focus mostly on com.suunto.movescount.model* classes. Consturction of that sample workout could also be useful, you’ll find it in com.suunto.movescount.activity.WorkoutPlannerActivity .

Kuba Sarata

@in7ead thanks for the date. I felt that it was some kind of secret for a long time now.

Another thing we’re loosing are tags that will be not transferred to the new app.

Are Suunto planning to maintain both Suunto App and Movescount Web indefinitely - or is the plan to add Route/Settings for the Ambit series into the Suunto App in the long term?

This is a really interesting question and I’m really keen to get the answer to this one.

Also adding a new one:

If MC is staying as a viable tool for Ambits users, will all the annoying small bugs (like elevation on route planning or search bar) be fixed?

…none of the current line of Suunto watches fill all my needs…

I feel the same. When one doesn’t care about the colourful touch screen (I think it’s a disadvantage actually) and when you take out this feature the 9 Baro is still not better than Ambit 3 Peak

Cheers!

amasidlover

@margusl That’s great - is there then just a specific folder I put the resulting files in for SuuntoLink to recognise and transfer them?

margusl

@amasidlover , not quite, creating the Workout structure as json is just the first step, you then have to use Movescount service API in the same way as MC mobile app does - Workout structure is base64 encoded, stored in another json and sent over to Movescont backend service running somewhere in Amazon cloud. And thats the part that takes me some time and effort to document.

margusl

@Brad_Olwin said in Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?:

The only thing I am aware of that you lose is complex interval workouts that were available in Movescount App.

besides BT connectivity-related issues:

currently there’s no support for syncing power data from Ambits (Stryd / bike power meter, Running power with Stryd sensor is still present in specs, kind of valid as watch itself does display power)
currently HR zones can’t be adjusted
if apps remain, data collected by apps is not synced to Suunto App (Logging of app specific metrics is still present in specs, lot of bullet points in specs are actually implemented only through apps)
no EPOC / EPOC peak, est. VO2, respiration rate (EPOC & V02 max values is still present in specs)
no support for planned activities, incl. target intensities (MC calendar & training plans)
… and probably few more bits …

amasidlover

@margusl said in Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?:

currently there’s no support for syncing power data from Ambits (Stryd / bike power meter, Running power with Stryd sensor is still present in specs, kind of valid as watch itself does display power)

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos is this planned to be fixed before the 13th? This is a MAJOR blocker for my usage… I hadn’t realised it was the case…

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@amasidlover I think yes very soon

amasidlover

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos said in Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?:

@amasidlover I think yes very soon

Good to know, thanks!

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@margusl said in Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?:

EPOC & V02 max values is still present in specs

You dont get post workout with an ambit epoc and running index ?

mlakis

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos, do you know if by October 27th the new “cut down” Movescount web will include a bug fix for routes elevation profile?

Stefan Kersting

@Prenj said in Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?:

Remember that when you go out in the mountains. If you at some point choose to take a different path and you haven’t uploaded it to your watch, you will need computer, cable and internet connection to add a new route. You don’t carry those those to the mountain peaks? What kind of hiker/mountaineer are you?

Maybe I am a little bit old fashioned, but when navigating in the mountains I do that with map and compass. The navigation function is a nice gadget that I use too. But navigating tha old way is more fun.

Prenj

@Stefan-Kersting said in Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?:

@Prenj said in Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?:

Remember that when you go out in the mountains. If you at some point choose to take a different path and you haven’t uploaded it to your watch, you will need computer, cable and internet connection to add a new route. You don’t carry those those to the mountain peaks? What kind of hiker/mountaineer are you?

Maybe I am a little bit old fashioned, but when navigating in the mountains I do that with map and compass. The navigation function is a nice gadget that I use too. But navigating tha old way is more fun.

Well I get your point, but some of us bought GPS outdoor watch to use it instead of, or together with a map and compass. I mean you can also run and keep log of your runs using a simple analog watch, map and a pen. You can even keep track of your HR by counting beats of your heart in a minute, write complex intervals on your hand etc.

The point is we invested some hard earned money in device that makes some stuff we do easier. Suunto is now making it less easy or impossible. Not cool.

Fenr1r

@Stefan-Kersting I agree that map and compass is fun … up to a point and in conditions of good visibility with distinctive, identifiable landmarks. For me, the usefulness of GNSS is to locate and navigate yourself off-track when these conditions don’t apply.

Hiking on foggy moorland with <2km/h here, >6km/h there and skirting impassable terrain where necessary, assistance from above is very handy. Map & compass alone? A bit tedious, particularly if positional triangulation becomes necessary.

Stefan Kersting

@Fenr1r it is ok to trust a watch in nice weather, but when conditions are bad and the weather is demanding I do not trust a watch without any map or some waypoints you picked at home in the sofa without knewing/seeing the terrain.

Maybe I am thinking like this because I live in Norway, but the first thing when outdoors and far away from help - maybe off the grid - is not to trust too much in technology that can fail. When using technology, then with a big enough electronic map you can use for navigation, e.g. a GPS device.

Fenr1r

@Stefan-Kersting Very good points and I mostly agree. I’m referring to fairly typical conditions (for some places) rather than extreme. Conditions that lie between handy map ‘n’ compass and full-on electronic map. I will sometimes take one of those, too - but it gobbles batteries and noticeably increases weight on multi-day hikes … and in that (often literally) grey area feels like overkill/cheating.

I will wear a watch anyway: lousy sense of time and no guaranteed sun visibility where I often go. I always take a map. And terrain always beats … everything. But if we use maps, we are already taking things on faith (that the cartographers were right, for starters). So, we use a working measure of confidence in the tools available, appropriate to conditions and perceived risk. Trust is never absolute.

The watch is, for me, the perfect compromise for the things I do on the majority of occasions where I need/want more than the time. It can give me a grid ref for my position that will translate fast enough to a position on the map good enough for most use. My POIs/Wps are picked because they are as permanent and identifiable as possible. If one isn’t where it’s supposed to be relative to where the watch thinks I am, then I step up a navigational grade.

But by and large my Suunto does a great job. Or “will have done a great job”, after Oct. 13.

Love those DNT tracks and the wilderness around them.

margusl

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos said in Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?:

@margusl said in Movescount EOL - What does this mean for Ambit3 Peak?:

EPOC & V02 max values is still present in specs

You dont get post workout with an ambit epoc and running index ?

For Ambits ~~none of it is~~ EPOC is not accessible from Suunto App .
I do get the running index vs vo2max thing, but A3P spec actually lists “Running Performance (Firstbeat)” separately and “EPOC & V02 max values” comes with a “available In Movescount.com”-note. Though it should probably read “est. Vo2” instead as this is what Movescount provides. But thanks for reminder - running performance is another metric present in Movescount but missing from Suunto App

Ambit users got their EPOC values only from Movescount. Well, there is a realtime EPOC app too and it does provide some values, so yeah, theoretically one could also keep track of something EPOCish on a fridge door with PostIt notes.
But realtime EPOC is also well separated in the specs from MC EPOC:
Real time EPOC - ** available as Suunto Apps

Interesting, A3P at suunto.com Euro stores is finally out of stock, so now there’s little less reason to moan about messy spec sheet of a product that is still actively sold Would think it’s somewhat related to transition, but Traverse is still available …