Nov transition update
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@TELE-HO "gently convince customers to upgrade"
Suuntoâs problem lately is the change of mentality to a Silicon Valley greed type. This used to be a brand for the hardcore divers and sport enthusiats with gear that lasts and stable, full of features/data software. Since the launch of Spartan the decline is evident with flimsy devices and now even the software shrinked in order to save some money for the shareholders.
So youâre telling me that after I spent one grand on a DX I need now to upgrade to have my dives on a public platform where I can share it with friends and the comunity in general? And after I spent another ÂŁ600 on a Spartan I need to use some 3rd party website to build a route and then transfer it into the SA?
Suunto doesnât realize that there is fierce competition out there and if I feel attached of my DX, I donât feel the same about the disappointing Spartan at all and Iâll ditch it for a Polar as soon as the MC webservice will cease to exist in the shape itâs now -
So is this definitive that Ambit 3 will not have the ability to change watch settings from Suunto App? Weâll have to use what remains of the Movescount website and a cable connection?
Why not? That functionality is there for Spartan and S9 already. It canât be that hard given the code is already written for Movescount app and the connectivity layer is already set up for the Suunto App.
Additionally, what happens to Ambit 3 Workouts? The only way to manage them currently is via the MovesCount app. You canât do it on Movescount web or on the watch itself.
Will that be added to the stripped down website at least? -
@rob_nz said in Nov transition update:
Why not? That functionality is there for Spartan and S9 already. It canât be that hard given the code is already written for Movescount app and the connectivity layer is already set up for the Suunto App.
Because the configuration of Spartan and S-line is much simplified compared to Ambit line. For newer watches only sport mode displays can be customized, and the set of fields and the possible display layouts are all completely different. For Ambit line, for example, there possible to select up to 4 different fields displayed in the bottom row on each display (and then rotate through them by pressing the View button). That means that the sport mode displays configuration is quite different between the two series. Furthermore for Ambit watches the configuration includes setting the GPS accuracy mode, logging intervals, which sensors are supported, etc. Ambit configuration also has to include HR and pace zones because that canât be done on the watch, and potentially some other things. Obviously Suunto doesnât want to invest money and time in the features that wonât help them sell any new watches and will be obsolete. They try to get by with the absolute minimum no matter how ugly the experience will be for the users.
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@silentvoyager @rob_nz At the end it all comes down to is Suunto willing to invest money and time to give legacy customers a proper solution not just a crippled one.
Iâm a software developer, I know itâs not easy to build old software parts into new one, but it can be done, and the difficulty level depends on how well was designed and executed the new software.
Anyway, I can understand they donât want to implement full Ambit3 line support into Suunto app, but then they should provide a new Moveslink like application for legacy watches, for configuration and sync, not a crippled solution of ânew MCâ (for settings) - Suuntolink (for sync setting and exercises) - Suunto app (for analysis).
As an Ambit3 user I used Movescount app to sync my settings/moves and used Movescount web site for analysis. Iâve tried a couple of times the new Suunto app, but always ended deleting it (itâs just not there for me). Will try Suunto app once again + Movescount web site to configure my watch + Moveslink2 to sync the settings, will see how it goes Suuntoâs development, then decide whatâs next.
If you ask me it would be more fair to customers if they just stated: âwe will end support for old devices at X time, sorryâ. Yes, they would get bashes and hate, but are getting now or will get in 2020 anyway. Then everyone could decide whatâs next. Now we are in an uncertain ground where nobody knows the result and itâs a shame.
Keeping high hopes even if you know you canât provide at the end, shows a level of âlack of respectâ toward your customers. -
I think at the moment the cheaper solution for Suunto is to offer discount coupons for legacy users to âupgradeâ to newer models of watches, than to code for legacy hardware.
I donât agree with this policy and in the long run it will cost them more, because an unhappy customer is something every company should fear and there are a lot of unhappy customers out there right now.SHUT UP LEGS!
-Jens Voigt -
@fejker
with a voucher a watch at suunto is still more expensive than in several online shops -
Some great posts, comments and thoughts being shared. Itâs clear that disappointment is the pervasive feeling among customers with older Suunto products.
And a few of the die-hards continue to defend the company, saying that the hardware is better than the competition. Thatâs debatable, but hardware and software cannot be separated from one another. And the software is in a sorry state. That is not debatable.
I get that things like Sport Modes, watch screens and workouts are hard to port, but seemingly basic features like importing/syncing routes not working just boggles the mind. As someone stated above, the products are still being advertised and sold on their website as having this functionality.
I agree with @andrasveres that it would be better almost to say they will end support full stop, rather than dangling the âbogus carrot of reconciliationâ in front of us.
I donât know man, itâs just a bit tiresome, this carouselâŚ
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@andrasveres I know next to nothing about these things but, as a software developer, you might:
Could you modify/finish the Suunto FW for abandoned models if they released the source code? (Would they be likely to do so?) Also, MovesLink?
Could the Suunto FW be replaced with an OpenSource OS?
Could you write apps (or whatever) for such a platform to do what Suunto wonât and integrate them with a phone/computer app?
Or is everything too complicated, integrated and proprietal?
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@Fenr1r
Firmware development is not an easy task, but if you got all the documentation it surely can be done.
Replacing the firmware on an existing device with other OS need proper understanding of the underlying hardware and I doubt Suunto will provide such info.
As for Moveslink alternative or any other piece of software sure it can be done if they provide documentation or open source drivers to communicate with the watch, otherwise it needs time consuming work.
But as I know there are some good projects already, take a look here. -
@andrasveres Thank you: very interesting. I have adjusted my realism filters accordingly.
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@Fenr1r
I usually think when I am annoyed about something that somebody who is smart was annoyed by the same thing before me and provided a solution⌠-
@TELE-HO Or couldnât either but has good reasons why. Which works, too: misery loves company.
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@dsc1401 But Suunto has your money now and new type of customers will probably arrive so why care⌠I am their new customer and of course would be Garminâs if I had understood the changes at the time of purchase. Even if in the end it really turns out that in summer 2020 I donât need to buy a new bloody phone compatible with my watch.
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@silentvoyager
Ok, thatâs some fair comment.
However, in that case why not simply keep the current Movescount App as is for Ambit 3 and modify Movescount servers to export the data to the Suunto App backend if they want to retire the Movescount database moving forward? If they can do it for the variety of 3rd Parties they already support, (such as Strava and Training Peaks) they can surely do it for their own product with minimal development effort.In effect his would just be an extension of what they are already going to do in terms of trimming down the Movescount site to a config tool for Ambits, they just need add a pipeline to get the Move data to the new database instead of the old one. Given they already have a migration tool, the data mapping is already done so the development effort should be pretty minimal. They could just trim Movescount down to a small staging database and script periodic or event driven updates to Suunto App backend.
Why force us onto an app that doesnât fully support our devices if they already have one that does? They donât need to update or maintain the app, but removing it from the store seems unnecessary.
TBH I can live without the Movescount site as I mostly use it just to get my activities to Training Peaks, but the Watch configuration and Interval
Workout features of the Movescount App are things I actually need.At a pinch I can get by with cable connection for Sport mode configuration, but Workouts are only on the watch and Movescount App.
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@rob_nz said in Nov transition update:
why not simply keep the current Movescount App as is for Ambit 3 and modify Movescount servers to export the data to the Suunto App backend if they want to retire the Movescount database moving forward?
That would make sense, but I guess the Suunto App backend canât be used to store the variety of data needed by Movescount frontend. All those sport specific settings that exist in Movescount - they likely donât fit the current schema of SA backend database, and Suunto wants to avoid complexity of supporting two completely different families of devices. Suunto has shoot itself into foot by changing internal design of Spartan so drastically compared to Ambit. They moved away from having the master copy of all settings in the cloud, and all the difficulties we have today are consequences of that decision.
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@silentvoyager This is true (the complexity), but they ALREADY HAVE THIS CODE, itâs been working, for a very long time, years now.
Yes, I get that it needs some âporting workâ (as a s/w engineer and tech-PM, Iâve dealt with this stuff most of my life), but it cannot be âso hard that it warrants this mess, for the A3â, I find that hard to believe.
Someone else brought up the (very important) point that this is their best-selling watch, ever. This means, that even if say 75% of these are in-use, by consumers, that they are just about to âreally tick off a giant segment of their dedicated usersâ.Me, I sold my A2S, and have just about sold my A3S (a friend wants it, plans on âdealing with the messâ, he just hasnât quite committed), and I have one A3 around, which I plan to keep, for now, mostly because Iâm âquite curious how this all turns out for Suuntoâ.
Yeah, I know, too many watches, one âlives in my ski-gear bagâ, another is in my cycling-kit, and a 3rd (the one Iâm not selling) I use for more everyday stuff, or hiking/backpacking/climbing trips, itâs my âgeneral use Ambitâ.
I donât plan on moving on to S9 or whatever though, this has left a pretty-bad-taste, for me. I get that products canât live forever (not my background again), but then be up-front about it, and stop flip-flopping every couple of months, that just makes you look stupid-flaky, and unreliable.
I think Suunto customers are pretty loyal, I sure was, until about 8 months ago, when this all started to become apparent that it was a âbig messâ, Iâd been a customer since the early 2000âs (T6 and S6).
Once you âlose a loyal customerâ particularly over a clearly âbad business move and clearly deciding against CS, even just EOLâing thingsâ, itâs VERY hard to get that base back.
I tend to think a lot of people will go to Polar, theyâre the closest thing.
Iâm pretty sure Iâm going to Garmin, just because theyâve been dead-consistent with their watch support, for a VERY long time, and have âdecent enough graphing toolsâ, and I can easily move that data to another site, given the pervasiveness of Garmin stuff.I wish it were otherwise, and Suunto had been MUCH more CLEARLY communicative here, but itâs not, unfortunatelyâŚ
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@pgrey This!
November update has been so abstract and inconclusive regarding movescount that it is just plain stupid. Full stop. Suunto have left its users as clueless as before. Only clear thing is that ambit users will be able to cable sync.And still we Spartan users do not know if new fw updates will make it to our watches.
Time is going by and Suunto are just not making enough progress and not properly transmitting to its client base.
Right now I feel like I wouldnât touch a new Suunto product with a ten-foot poleâŚ
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It is too bad that management usually doesnât care until it is too late. They usually just care about making the margins so the shareholders get their money. But this is shortsighted behavior and ends up being bad for the customers and the company, consequently the shareholders too. It is a lose-lose situation in the end.
If you ask me right now if I would upgrade from a SSU to an S9 Baro for free if it meant I had to keep it for at least a year, I would say no.
That is purely based on the bad communication by Suunto and poor transfer to the ânew platformâ which is still very much in alpha/early beta status compared to MC after more than a year of development. -
@fejker If itâs the âsolutionâ for Suunto, the A3P will be the last Suunto product for me. Itâs the best way for a âHow to lose customersâ tutorial.
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@pgrey 100% agree! There is also the effect on the developers themselves, no way everyone working on SA/MC agrees with this decision, so Suunto may lose a portion of their dedicated workforce over this. Itâs an incredibly short-sighted move on their part.
At least I got to try a Garmin, so far pretty impressed with the watch and Garminâs app/website.
