sample set movescount.com uploads Jan.15 by device family
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@Tobias-F said in sample set movescount.com uploads Jan.15 by device family:
@Brad_Olwin said in sample set movescount.com uploads Jan.15 by device family:
perhaps your watch will be supported.
thanks for valuable comment Brad
emphasizes on “perhaps” , if you bought an Ambit3 yesterday and today Suunto tell you it “perhaps” will be supported beyond next summer it’s not only my opinion (beyond the many similar concerns form user here past days) that this is unacceptable furthermore in US and Europe an regulatory requirement by federal agencies and render illegal and against the law for consumer protection statutes and breach of the implied warranty, nothing legally left to debate or to discuss - full stop
good luck in tinkering with the law and starts discussion with federal agencies in multiple jurisdictions, think they will start laughing at you if you come with opening statement “perhaps we might fulfill our regulatory obligations …”
Suunto just lost an class action law suit for their dive computers in US about accuracy of dive pressure sensor (http://www.suuntodivecomputersettlement.com/), they didn’t go to an US court and fight in through, no - they settled and denied wrongdoing… so at least they understand what regulatory requirements mean, and by the way their layer didn’t start with “perhaps”
last comment: I would expect from a forum moderator a bit more customer emphasizes and being a voice for the effected and concerned user rather then defending the mess and opposing against a worried and voiced out customer here but probably this forum is not the right place for it…
Even Though I am a moderator, I am no different than you. I do not work for Suunto and have no influence on what Suunto decides to do. I am not defending Suunto’s actions although I did go through this once before with the transition from Training Manager to MC. I have had a number of service requests with Suunto and have always been treated well by them. My old iPhone doesn’t work nearly as well as it should and was not going going to be compatible with iOS12 so I bought a new one. By the time the transition occurs all but the Ambit 3 will be much older than my iPhone…I did not threaten Apple with lawsuits nor did I post my displeasure or rant on social media. I just have a different outlook than you do.
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@Brad_Olwin
From my previous post
‘Suunto Official Store’ they’re selling the 3Peak HR for £389.00 and promoting ‘Route planning in Suunto Movescount.com’ knowing in a couple of years it’ll be defunct. Correct that to less than ‘a couple of years’
Not happy. Enough said. -
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@NickK said in sample set movescount.com uploads Jan.15 by device family:
Once upon a time Apple’s computers run on PowerPC, not Intel processors. I still remember conversations with a few unhappy owners who had perfectly working laptops that were no longer supported once the switch was over.
The comparison to Apple changing processors doesn’t actually make sense. By changing processors it meant that current users couldn’t upgrade. What it didn’t do is remove any existing functionality from a product that they were still selling.
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@Brad_Olwin said in sample set movescount.com uploads Jan.15 by device family:
My old iPhone doesn’t work nearly as well as it should and was not going going to be compatible with iOS12 so I bought a new one. By the time the transition occurs all but the Ambit 3 will be much older than my iPhone…I did not threaten Apple with lawsuits nor did I post my displeasure or rant on social media. I just have a different outlook than you do.
I bet Apple weren’t selling phones that wouldn’t work with their new OS on their site though.
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@Navigator said in sample set movescount.com uploads Jan.15 by device family:
@Brad_Olwin
From my previous post
‘Suunto Official Store’ they’re selling the 3Peak HR for £389.00 and promoting ‘Route planning in Suunto Movescount.com’ knowing in a couple of years it’ll be defunct. Correct that to less than ‘a couple of years’
Not happy. Enough said.The BLE connected watches will be supported. I think how much support is unclear at this time. This point has be discussed quite a bit.
Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing
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@Brad_Olwin said in sample set movescount.com uploads Jan.15 by device family:
The BLE connected watches will be supported. I think how much support is unclear at this time. This point has be discussed quite a bit.
The issue doesn’t appear to be the support of BLE devices. The issue for a lot of people seems to me to be more related to the removal of functionality of devices that are still being sold based on the exact functionality.
To an extent I understand that older devices might be phased out, as unfortunate as it is for those that are impacted by this. The real kicker is the currently models in certain ranges potentially being made less capable.
At the very minimum it would have made sense to have a plan in place to maintain the current functionality of all the products Suunto are selling after the move onto the new platform.
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@Brad_Olwin
It’s kind of sad seeing how Suunto is destroying perfectly functional platform while selling new products with half baked crippled mobile app. So new customers are supposed to buy product and wait (judging by speed of Suunto’s development team) few years to have a product that is actually usable? Why would anyone do that? There are cheaper products that have functional app right now.It seems to me that Suunto is being relegated from 1st league and their competition is now going to be cheap Chinese manufacturers instead of Garmin, Polar etc.
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@be1t0n
Using the Apple comparison if Apple pulled iTunes I wonder how customers would feel if they couldn’t upload their extensive music collections, configure ‘backups’ or set other ‘options’? -
@Navigator said in sample set movescount.com uploads Jan.15 by device family:
@Brad_Olwin
From my previous post
‘Suunto Official Store’ they’re selling the 3Peak HR for £389.00 and promoting ‘Route planning in Suunto Movescount.com’ knowing in a couple of years it’ll be defunct. Correct that to less than ‘a couple of years’
Not happy. Enough said.I just bought the 3 Peak HR from the Suunto webshop (at far less than £389- it would appear that there is some will to offload soon-to be compromised hardware). My product choice was strongly influenced by the “route planning in movescount.com” feature. I live in a remote area with pitiful phone coverage and a smartphone is of no use whatsoever to me. The assumption that everyone uses/has access to smartphone services is about as ridiculous as assuming that all millenial males have beards. As far as I’m concerned the product is guaranteed for 2 years and that includes the advertised ability to use Movescount.com web feature, which is promoted as part of the product package. There was no mention on the webshop or at any point during the transaction process that a large part of the product’s functionality is about to be lobotomised. That’s pretty shady trading on Suunto’s part. The watch hasn’t arrived yet but I’m most likely going to send it straight back and buy a different from another manufacturer. Shame, as the advertised feature set would have suited my needs perfectly, but it appears that the product is not as advertised, or at least it won’t be in 18 months time (within the guarantee period). I could of course keep it, use it for the coming year, then send it back and claim a full refund when the plug is pulled on Movescount, as it would mean that one of it’s advertised product features was no longer working.
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@NickK The Zune has basically an “open file system”, at least the content and other parts that matter, and you can still upload most music to it, particularly any CD titles and such. So, unlike my Ambit2 (and Ambit 3 that will no longer work as a DH ski watch, either, after this goes down), it “lives on”.
The fact that Suunto failed to design in a “layered architecture” for their system, is more likely what happened here (say compared to Garmin). If they had, support for older devices, wouldn’t be much of an issue, particularly given the low volume.
I’m losing my Suunto2 AND 3, effectively, given that I can’t use either to track skiing anymore. While I could use my 3 for cycling (my other main sports-tracking use), I’m most likely just going to sell both (if I still can), and pick up a couple of used Fenix 3s, or similar.
I’ve been with Suunto since the late 1990’s (Vector, S6, and others), and despite being a s/w (and sometimes h/w) engineer myself, I was always a little dubious of the “closed loop” system Suunto did with the MovesCount system, given that there’s no easy way to import/export files, like say Garmin.
Now, I’m wishing I’d been MUCH more wary, and bailed after my S6.Personally, given that they’re still selling the Ambit3, and it’s promoted as supporting apps (ssh, don’t tell anyone it’s only for a little over a year), I think Suunto is going to lose a lot of “customer loyalty” and to a lesser degree, credibility, here.
If you want some more introspection, there’s a big discussion over on DCR’s site, where he wrote up a pieces about the demise (it’s also got hundreds of comments, along the lines of these). -
The fact that Suunto failed to design in a “layered architecture” for their system, is more likely what happened here (say compared to Garmin). If they had, support for older devices, wouldn’t be much of an issue, particularly given the low volume.
How do you know that?
Also you mention that you are sure that A3 will not be support (or A2). You have not gotten any news from Suunto so far about this have you.
Its easy to jump to conclusions, for everyone, as everyone has an opinion and respected, but to say things like you know them, aint good pal
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@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos I can trace/debug their PC app, if that’d help (and provide a call-stack, for a typical activity transfer, obviously w/o symbollic-code-data)?
I’ve designed both types (layered and monolithic), although most monolithic stuff is on the way out, or has been for a long time (going on 30 years in the PC world now), this is a typical issue that almost always arises, with a monolithic design.
I guess I’m not 100% confident, but I’d say I’m 95%, from a professional perspective, and willing to do the legwork, and provide the stack-traces, if there’s interest.The page here, explicitly states that they won’t be supported (apps), on the Ambit3.
I did chat w/support, and they verified that there are no plans to add a “DH ski mode” to the Ambit3, so what other possible path would there be, or conclusion to be drawn?
Do you think that the support chat, AND the page that calls it out are insufficient, to base the lack of support for the Ambit3, going forward?Since Suunto isn’t going to integrate this into the Ambit3 (even though they are STILL selling it, as a ski-specific watch, check their sales page it’s up there today, 3/27/19), and are going to disable all the apps and custom fields, on the Ambit3, this is where I see things. Am I missing something?
I did look back, and I paid almost 400, for the Ambit3 Peak, almost 2 years ago exactly, when I purchased it for DH ski tracking, explicitly. I guess this means I get 2, or maybe 3 years of use for it, depending on how “flexible” the data-port side of things is (as in, will you be able to port at the very last minute in 2020, or are you forced to do it sooner).
Thanks for any clarification.
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@pgrey I would really wait for Suuntos news. I am sure because I have been quite involved with transferring the feedback and because a3 is still sold, that those devices won’t be bricked. Please wait for them to show their next plans. Should not come later than this summer.
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@pgrey What do you mean with monolithic vs layered. I am in the field of SW dev (not for Suunto) so please go on.
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@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos Bricked and effectively-bricked/non-functional are different, in this case, but only slightly.
If you can’t use it to track things like DH skiing, because apps are no longer supported, well, then it’s “effectively bricked”, right?The only difference, is that it might be possible to sell it still, depending on how far the “bottom falls out”, once this is more common knowledge.
The bizarre thing to me, is you can go to the Suunto Sales page, right now, choose “Alpine skiing” as one of your desired activity, and it’ll suggest the Ambit3, as one of the watches to purchase. There’s NO mention, anywhere here, about how the activity will be disabled, in about a year (possibly earlier, if you want to port your data over, from the activity).
I’ve owned mine a bit less than 2 years, and am VERY frustrated with this, but I can’t imagine how I’d feel, if I purchased it last week.Like I said, I’ve been a Suunto customer for over 2 decades now, and this has me researching where I want to go next, in terms of finding a brand that has a more long-term support model.
I like the Suunto h/w, and the MovesCount site, and all my previous models, to-date, but the (apparent) “future model” of rapidly “aging out” existing-functioning watches, is something I want no part of. -
@pgrey hi why will exactly alpine skiing be removed ? Am i missing something ?
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@pgrey I would really suggest to wait till our summer announcements before you make any next move. Till then your watch will be fully functional anyways.
That is if you like your watch and suunto for the last 2 decades.
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@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos Sure.
If you build a monolithic model for something like this, ALL your data flow is contained in one module, or a series of modules with zero re-usability.
For example, there’s a “convert data blob for sport mode to DB XML” function, for each device.If you build a layered model, with an object-model(s) in the middle, then all the “heavy lifting” of the data conversion, DB/XML work, etc, is all contained in modules that span any device, because the data model is all common for these operations.
There are modules “per-device”, that sit on the bottom of the stack, and simply retrieve data, and push it into the data-receiver-OM.
This means, that if you make a change, in ANY module above the device-modules, the abstraction completely removes the data from any fixed data-source.Pretty much all modern s/w is written this way, if designed properly, because it scales, very easily. Any OS these days, for example, doesn’t care if the data for an operation came from a HDD, SSD, an iSCSI connection, a thumb-drive, or random network device, as long as the modules below it “abstract the data properly”, as a “pure storage module”.
The same model follows, if I have a 10-button mouse, and my OS only officially supports 3 buttons, I can add a layered-driver (a very simple one to write, BTW) that grabs data from those other 7, and adds it to the data model, say for a few specific apps (that work better with the 10 button setup).You can add to this model easily, for future devices, as long as you keep the current abstractions constant and inherited, the “additional data” is essentially “optional”, but fully supported, and has NO effect on older devices.
This also allows easily adding new functions/data-sources, say from Bluetooth6, 802.59xyz, or whatever, that might be more efficient if added, without changing any of the other data-flow modules, as they’re still getting the exact same data from the OM-abstraction, just from a slightly different source (that they have no knowledge of, or need to have any).If you work in a s/w role (as I have for going on 30 yrs now), I’m sure you’re familiar?
Not having an object-model/layered design (2nd is generally more around OS or device work, but the abstraction is essentially the same) is okay, if you’re writing a “simple utility” or similar, then a monolithic design is quick/cheap.
Not having an OM/layered design, for a multi-device, multi-data source, design is possible, but quickly gets incredibly difficult/buggy/expensive to maintain.
Which do you think is the case here? -
@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos said in sample set movescount.com uploads Jan.15 by device family:
@pgrey hi why will exactly alpine skiing be removed ? Am i missing something ?
No, but it’s not very useful, if you can’t count runs, and look at per-run data, it’s almost like you just “rode all over the mountain” on your MTB, or similar.
This is WHY there are numerous run-counting apps that have been published, to-date. Most are really simple code, you can take a look if you’re interested.If these are disabled, and Alpine Skiing isn’t “enhanced”, like it is on more recent watches, for the Ambit3, then my 2YO (and very expensive) Ambit3 becomes a “path-tracker”, on the ski slopes.
I think Suunto has completely ignored this, I bet they know exactly how many people use these counters, and are just figuring we’ll all just buy new watches, or whatever.
I’m not about to go buy a new watch, given the way this has been handled, in particular the fact they’re still selling this watch for this function (this seems like an outright scam, to me), but don’t call out the fact that it’ll be disabled, in a year.The CS person I talked to said there was no plan to add anything to Alpine Skiing, do you have some information that they didn’t?
