[Vertical 2, 2.53.42] Map and Navigation features are greatly improved but there are still a lot of old issues and also new bugs introduced in the latest update

[sky-runner]

@dreamer_ I used the navigation arrow on Garmin Fenix 6 and 7 watches - the one that goes around the data screen.

I thought about suggesting the same for Suunto watches but I think it won’t fit the design because there is already intensity zone dial around most data screens on Suunto watches, and it has its own arrow. Having two different arrows would be confusing.

And besides, in my experience that navigation arrow didn’t work that well at running speeds. Often, it would delay pointing me in the right direction until after I was already past the turn if I wanted to go quickly without stopping, so in many situations it was adding to the confusion rather than helping me to navigate.

[dreamer_]

@sky-runner said in [Vertical 2, 2.53.42] Map and Navigation features are greatly improved but there are still a lot of old issues and also new bugs introduced in the latest update:

@dreamer_ I used the navigation arrow on Garmin Fenix 6 and 7 watches - the one that goes around the data screen.

I thought about suggesting the same for Suunto watches but I think it won’t fit the design because there is already intensity zone dial around most data screens on Suunto watches, and it has its own arrow. Having two different arrows would be confusing.

And besides, in my experience that navigation arrow didn’t work that well at running speeds. Often, it would delay pointing me in the right direction until after I was already past the turn if I wanted to go quickly without stopping, so in many situations it was adding to the confusion rather than helping me to navigate.

I’m not that sure. The thing is the arrow we already have for the intensity zone is always is in the other direction, pointing to the datafields. Perhaps that arrow, instead of being white, should have the color that matches the intensity zone. But doing that, red is still invalidated.

So, much better, change the arrow for something else that is not an arrow and problem solved (I.E, a double T).

This is only the idea . The design could be made a lot better, so the problem is not really there.

In the other side, I see an scenario where having the arrow in the datafields is more than nothing. I still remember an ultra running at night with fog and deep forest following that arrow in the datafields. That was several years ago, and also with a Fenix 6 Pro and navigation is much better now. But watches are also a lot more reactive for the arrow.

It’s just an idea, of course. The how, if possible, should be thinked much better than this.

[sky-runner]

@dreamer_ Personally, when I am running an ultra or doing a long training run, 90% of the time I am either on the map screen where I can already see what’s coming in terms of navigation or I am on the elevation profile climb guidance screen. Now with data fields at the bottom, that’s all I need. And I can also see upcoming waypoints on the these two screens.

The extra benefit of staying on these screens is that I can’t accidentally pause the recording.

[dreamer_]

@sky-runner I agree. Things have changed by a lot .
Perhaps trail running is not the scenario nowadays.
About that argument and if you go further with that and about the map, do you really use the map in a race with beacons?

Personally, it’s very rare for me to waste time using it for running in a race with beacons, but I do not conceive a watch without maps (I’m not saying I don’t conceive the watch without the navigation arrow, of course). But is very likely you are running most races with beacons (there are those that do not have them, of course).

Now looking at the shot I posted about the Fenix 8, they are using just a vertical line and not an arrow (I find much better Suunto’s design, not only for this but for datafields with big numbers without text legends). This is not a comparison, It’s thinking about the arrow.

But if navigation arrow is (or can be) implemented the other arrow should clearly be removed and changed for something else. I see even mark using an opaque tiny rectangle, and matching the colour of the zone. There was another brand doing that (I think).

This is just thinking about it. I’m not saying that should be done (at all). But in the other side, it’s very likely that is not something complicated to implement. It’s just about keeping things clean (and I totally agree with you in that).

[peegee]

@Joaquin just to be certain, is the zoom established by pressing top button (vertical 2), us it also possible to zoom out?

[sky-runner]

@dreamer_ when you mention beacons, do you mean course markings - that is how it is called in United States - usually a combination of turn signs and ribbons to make sure that you are on the course.

When racing I still use navigation for two reasons:

1. To have elevation profile, climb guidance, and distances to aid stations.

2. To boost confidence in case I haven’t seen course markings for some time. Also, occasionally, course markings get tampered with or blown away by wind.

Perhaps, during a race I spend less time on the map screen and more time on the elevation profile, especially now that it can also show distances to upcoming waypoints. So in a way, the elevation profile is almost equivalent to Garmin’s Up Ahead feature (but sadly without waypoint names, which I think Suunto should add).

But during a long training run I spend more time on the map screen because I tend to have a unique route for each long run that is specially tailored to my distance and elevation goals for that run.

[dreamer_]

@sky-runner yes, course markings.

I completely share your points. The only thing is it’s rare for me to use the map, unless a course marking is lost (that happens, of course) and I’m really “out of the route”.
But what it usually happens (at least here) is that when you are out of the route, you usually know that at very few meters of the real track and it’s very likely easy to return and take the another path instead of stopping and looking at the maps.

[EzioAuditore]

@peegee If I understood correctly than yes same button on Vertical 2 can zoom in / zoom out. Short press zoom in long press zoom out. Same like middle button: short press advance screen long press go back (previous). Cheers!

[sky-runner]

Suunto navigation issue can have real negative consequences on training or even put someone in danger. That’s because of how easily the navigation direction can be reversed, potentially without the user noticing, and that still remains an ongoing issue.

TL;DR:

1. When accidentally reversing a loop direction, the watch doesn’t do a good job at notifying user and almost instantly reverses the route so there is a good chance mistake can remain unnoticed.

2. When skipping a part of the planned route, there is no notification at all the the originally planned route has been altered - not even an “off-route” notification.

Here is a concrete example from my today’s run.

The plan:

A training run on an upcoming race course that had to be counter-clockwise. The training session was supposed to go steeper slopes uphill while practicing pole use and run much gentler, more runnable sections downhill.

The result - despite using navigation, I mistakenly ran the route in reverse which made it more difficult because of steep downhills on loose ground and in one place more dangerous.

I didn’t realize that until several miles into the run. How did that happen? See the details and analysis further below.

Here is the route and the elevation profile for illustration purposes:

Shortly after the start of the run when the trails forked it was quite confusing and not obvious - the most obviously looking way was actually in the wrong direction, but it looked right despite looking at the map. I briefly looked at the map and wrongly concluded that it was the way to go, then switched to another data screen. My mistake? Perhaps, but…

Shortly after I went into the wrong direction the watch popped up “off route” banner and then literally within a second or two - “back on route”. I thought - “not again”! In my recent runs this “off route” and “back on route” dance now happens quite regularly when I am certainly not off route. The off-route detection has become so sensitive that it often gives a false negative when the map itself can be a bit inaccurate. So my brain learned to ignore it because it is a false negative most of the time, and when I was actually off-route I also ignored it.

The second issue is that the “back on route” notification went up almost instantly. Even thought I was technically on the route - I was clearly going in the wrong direction. As it has been discussed in this forum, the watch is supposed to wait for quite long time, perhaps 150 meters or so before giving up and switching the direction. But that is clearly not the case! Not only it assured me that I was now back on route, but it also instantly switched the elevation profile. Unfortunately I couldn’t see the difference because both direction go up.

After I’ve finished the run, I decided to repeat the experiment, and do the beginning of the route again. And again, after a second of popping up the “off route” notification it misled me that I was “back on route”. That is clearly wrong!

Second issue:

You can see that spur off the loop to a local summit at the right bottom part of the route. I was originally planning to do that in the beginning of the counter-clockwise loop, but since I went clock-wise I arrived there at the end of the run. It was getting late and I decided to skip that part.

Well, the most interesting observation was that there was no indication from the watch that I skipped a part of it. Within literally seconds after I skipped that part and continued on the loop, the blue navigation arrow just switched. There was no “off route” notification, no indication that the route has been altered. Nothing! The watch just silently accepted this without letting me know that I’ve perhaps made a mistake! I think that is unacceptable! The route is not open for an interpretation by a watch and should be followed as is.

For example, in several races, there may be a similar spur off the main race route leading to an aid station, and accidentally skipping the aid station would lead to a disqualification. Silently accepting an altered route is not the right behavior! At a minimum there should be a notification telling the user that the route has been altered.

[cosme.costa]

@sky-runner said:

Second issue:

You can see that spur off the loop to a local summit at the right bottom part of the route. I was originally planning to do that in the beginning of the counter-clockwise loop, but since I went clock-wise I arrived there at the end of the run. It was getting late and I decided to skip that part.

Well, the most interesting observation was that there was no indication from the watch that I skipped a part of it. Within literally seconds after I skipped that part and continued on the loop, the blue navigation arrow just switched. There was no “off route” notification, no indication that the route has been altered. Nothing! The watch just silently accepted this without letting me know that I’ve perhaps made a mistake! I think that is unacceptable! The route is not open for an interpretation by a watch and should be followed as is.

For example, in several races, there may be a similar spur off the main race route leading to an aid station, and accidentally skipping the aid station would lead to a disqualification. Silently accepting an altered route is not the right behavior! At a minimum there should be a notification telling the user that the route has been altered.

Here I understand the potential issue when you do a race and so on but I do not agree that it is an issue “per se”, it is more an inconvenience and a potential improvement, and inmy opinion this notification that you ask for should be an option. First of all, if you are in a race, probably you will have signs and marks to the compulsory aid stations but anywayl a reminder form the watch can be useful but as I have said, as an option because some of us, we do not want reminders for everything. Some times I use a route as a guide in an area and I move from it intentionally and I do not want the watch beeping all the time. So I see it more as a nice improvement/option.

Regarding the first issue (“off route” and “back on route”) I had this a lot with imported routes from third parties, pretty noticeable using the S9Baro without maps. In routes created with the SA I haven’t had it a lot. I think the issue comes from the imported route.

[dreamer_]

@sky-runner , about the HR zones I was posting in this shot:

This is the fix Suunto I think should consider:

That mark is super clean (better than Garmin’s line) and removes the erroneous arrow, cleaner and just perfect. Super easy fix too. That’d make possible a navigation arrow suitable in the current design.