Need some advice in TSS

[far-blue]

@tiago if you have the choice I’d personally go for the TSS variant that a) you can most usually collect data for and b) most closely matches how you train.

For instance, if you train by power and always have a means to record power then use that. But if you mix in swims, cycling and cross-training that doesn’t allow you to use power to calculate a TSS I’d go for hrTSS to standardise across the different workouts. hrTSS is the most ‘portable’ but is most easily impacted by altitude, temperature, illness and non-training stresses - which can be seen as both a negative and a positive.

TSS is, as far as I know, a unit-less and non-cross-comparable value that only has relevance within the context of your own training so it’s how TSS is used in TRIMP, CTL, ATL and TSB and how those values change over time that’s important. As you’ve pointed out, swapping which TSS value you use is going to impact those numbers.

[tiago]

@far-blue thanks for your answer,I have stryd since 2020 but never trained by power,I do some time trials only to see where my fitness are during a preparation for a marathon or half marathon,but in terms of threshold workouts or intervals i always use pace as a guide for my workout. In my easy days I like to stay between 135/150 bpm, whatever the pace is. So based on what you said I think the most suitable for me is using rTSS , because in the key workouts is what i use as a guide. And is easy to maintain because I don’t cycling or swim,so no problems there

[Brad_Olwin]

@tiago If you run trails, either power or pace is not useful IMHO. I use HR as a gauge but mostly train by RPE. On long trail runs I will be more fatigued at the end of a run and HR is not a good method to use as it will cause me to run slower than I should.
If you run mostly on pavement then pace or power should work well.

[sorinus]

@Brad_Olwin How do you train by RPE using Suunto? I’m new to RPE, I understand that it’s feeling based, but I don’t see any mention of “RPE” in Suunto Android app. Thank you.

P.S. I’m using Vertical but I assume the app is the same.

[Brad_Olwin]

@sorinus
This is a definition from Jason Koop
RecoveryRun=Recovery
RPE=3-5
Breathing ability=comfortable breathing, barely above walking rate.
Talk ability=story time!

EnduranceRun=this is your “forever” intensity
RPE=4-6
Breathing ability=rhythmic, moderate depth breathing, not labored.
Talk ability=comfortable conversation.

SteadyStateRun=high-end aerobic
RPE=7-8
Breathing ability=deep and labored breathing.
Talk ability=2-3 sentences

Tempo=lactate threshold
RPE=8-9
Breathing ability=deep and labored, faster than at high-end aerobic.
Talk ability=5-7 word sentence

RunningIntervals=VO2 max
RPE=9-10
Breathing ability=short and rapid.
Talk ability=single word, probably 4 letters.

[sorinus]

@Brad_Olwin Thank you, do you use your suunto watch/app to track this and get analysis?

[Brad_Olwin]

@sorinus I use the watch to track time and elevation gain. RPE is relative perceived effort so it is personal as defined. I have found ZoneSense to match my RPE up to 6 or 7. So Aerobic ZS for runs that are at AT and below and Anaerobic (Yellow) for Steady State Runs. For Tempo and Running Intervals I rely solely on RPE.

[jjorgemoura]

@Brad_Olwin I struggle with RPE classification, to be honest.
How to properly set a RPE value with you have a speed, intervals, hill sprints or intervals kind of session?

Imagine I have a 1 hour session mostly at Z2 with a 15/20 min string intervals in the middle at Z4/Z5. What’s the RPE here? A 6 or 7? No because I had some time at Z4/Z5. So a 8 or 9? Maybe not because I spent 45 mins at Z2. So…how to correctly classify the workout?

[zadow]

@jjorgemoura it is about your feeling. How did you perceive it. Not an exact data or value. You have to get used to it. Listen to your body. Think how did you feel during the workout. Do not break it to every interval and every rest part. TSS is also calculated for whole training, not only for intervals. So once again, when you finish your training, take some time. Think about how it went. How did you feel during the trainig. How much did you struggle and suffer in overal. Do not overthink it. Just listen to your body and then say honestly to yourself what RPE you would assign to that training. That’s it. It is that simple.
And no, no device can measure your RPE. It is your body and your feeling only.
Good luck with your training! (;

[sorinus]

I am mainly interested if you use Suunto app to track the RPE. Because I can’t see any reference to RPE in Suunto Android app.

[zadow]

@sorinus AFAIK, Suunto app does not offer RPE tracking. I am logging it via Training Peaks app.

[Brad_Olwin]

@jjorgemoura Please see the description I posted a few posts earlier, when I do an interval workout that is the purpose. I don’t think the classification matters. The watch will record power and HR for the time you spent in those zones and apply TSS values.

[Brad_Olwin]

@sorinus Please see what @zadow stated. No watch can track RPE.

[sorinus]

After some training using the default TSS(hr) I conclude that if the HR tracking is not accurate then the TSS is not accurate as well.
Unfortunately the OHR on my Vertical is missbehaving badly, like recording a HR way higher than how I feel. It suddenly jumps 30 to 40 points higher and stays there for many minutes. I’m not sure is because of the cold weather, or in general, since I have the watch for a bit over 1 month.

So I wonder if using the TSSr is better in such case, especially since it looks like it accounts for non-even terrain during trail running (via NGP). This article explains it well https://www.trainingpeaks.com/learn/articles/running-training-stress-score-rtss-explained/. Even if the TSS value is not that accurate at least it will be a consistent value accros runs. Thoughts?

[Inge Nallsson]

I simply have to comment on the RPE scales, of which there are many. The original was constructed by Gunnar Borg within the psychology/medicine field in the 1960s. He used a theoretical male with a resting HR of 60 and a max of 200. The scale then became 6-20 where the ‘feeling’ of light exercise at say 130 bpm would correspond to a 13 on the scale. He later simplified the scale down to a 0-10 rating.

I myself use the totality after a workout; how winded was I, how much did the muscles burn and how much fatigue do I feel standing here in the shower… Mostly my exertions fall in the 3-4 rating for easy runs up to an hour in length. But that is just me and my use of a 1-10 RPE scale.

[Brad_Olwin]

@sorinus The Uphill Athlete (I do not agree with their Aerobic Deficiency ideas!) suggests to add 10 TSS points for every 300m (1000 feet) elevation gain AND loss during a trail run to hrTSS as hrTSS and rTSS cannot adequately assess the stress. For example a slow very steep uphill power hiking could have elevated HR but rTSS will be widly inaccurate. A technical downhill requiring a lot of muscular stress from eccentric contractions will be slow and again neither hrTSS nor rTSS will be adequate.

I found TSS (Met) to nearly exactly match hrTSS+10TSS for every D+/- of 300m. So I use TSS Met in Suunto app and add the TSS pts to my trail runs in TrainingPeaks.

[stromdiddily]

@Brad_Olwin I missed it, what’s TSS Met?

[Brad_Olwin]

@stromdiddily
MET is metabolic equivalents and supposedly the least accurate but works for me.

[sorinus]

@Brad_Olwin Thanks for the information, but at the moment I can’t use it because I can’t use hrTSS - the OHR varies too much.
So until I start using a proper chest strap I have to use something else that even if it’s not accurate at least is consistent and rTSS is the one that I find it makes sense - at least judging from its description using NGP makes it suitable for trail runs as well.
Tomorrow I will do a test run on a trail run and see how much different is vs hrTSS. Then will do a flat run and compare as well. But in the end I feel like I’m wasting time and should just get a chest strap.

[Inge Nallsson]

I would also like to thank the commenters in this thread because your words resolved a quandary I encountered today: My 70 minutes run well below AeT was given a TSS of 81 and a very visible peak in the SA ‘Progress’ graph. Looking at the details of the activity the TSS was defined as TSS , as opposed to previous runs which had been TSS (hr).

Searching the web for the method by which Suunto classifies the activity, an article (at Suunto) said that is was automatic but based on how we had defined our HR/Pace and Power Zones. And it so happens that I changed unrealistic paces yesterday (they were much too fast) to measured and estimated values more in line with the AeT and AnT HR results. So my editing seems to have given the SA a sort of ‘go ahead’ to use TSS as a default for running.

Another posting, think it was in this forum, spoke about how you got a choice when editing the TSS at TrainingPeaks of which method you would like as the default in the future. Trying the same strategy in the SA yielded the exact same result. I was asked if I would like the TSS (hr) only for this activity, or to set it as a default.

The TSS (hr) today of 57 I would deem much closer to reality than the TSS (r ) of 81 - if indeed a TSS of 100 should be considered as 1 hour at AnT.

PS: Sorry about the Registered marks above. I’m writing in a sideloaded Chrome browser on a ‘Smart TV’ and can’t scroll backwards to change the text, which should read as TSS (r )…